Ash vs Evil Dead S02 E08: Ashy Slashy Discussion [SPOILERS]

I'm mostly with DyD this week.

@Ashenwraith - if we start poking at all plot holes that exist because they haven't properly thought out the fact that Ruby and Baal were in a centuries long relationship and thus should know one another quite well, we'll be here all day.  TBH the skin suit stuff should've just been generally thought out more thoroughly if he has shapeshifting abilities, but cheap gore is cheap gore.  Also skin only stretches so far, and would probably rip if he were dressing up as someone skinny.  And yeah, no one's going to complain about it.

I would also argue that watching AvED with ones' kids is a fool's errand in season 2 especially after sink sex set the tone of the show in the pilot.  The ratings have dipped since episode 3 and only recovered slightly since, so either it was the after effect of buttgate or people were pissed that Lee Majors died so early.

(Also Amanda actually had more flesh on her bones as a character than Linda has at the moment.  Linda at least currently has potential).  

Also Sam and Bruce approve of everything the WW is doing, TBH.  Bruce is the canary in the coal mine by his own admission.

Mine:

The Good

* The dialogue writing in some sections, especially for
Pablo's death
went up a notch in quality this episode, though there were a number of weak links.

* Michelle, Ray and Bruce's acting were all good, with some good stuff by Pepi Sonuga and some nice stuff by Lucy.  

* Kelly's evolving decently into a leader, and Pablo finally finishing taking his level in badass is wonderful. I like Linda's potential, and I like her mutual respect thing with Kelly.

* Pablo and Ruby's friendship is charming.

* The Kelly and Pablo stuff; they've sort of made them friends this season, which I like - but you can read it as a step forward for their possible romance.

* Most of the Pablo character work tbh.

* The digital effects have improved immensely.


The Meh

* As much as I like the Pablo/Ruby friendship, it feels like it kind of came out of nowhere after episode 2, where she kills him in his vision.

* I liked that Baal's hubris was the key to his death but it almost felt too easy to fool and trap him.

* The puppet fight was fun enough but felt like it went on for too long.


The Blah

* The number of plot holes and time skips this week were ridiculous.  How did Lacey get possessed?  Was it just because she went with Thomas to the asylum and that's how Baal took her hostage?  How did she and Linda even end up in the man's clutches in the first place?  This would have happened in front of Kelly (who was standing on the porch when Ash was taken out); the almost nonchalant way team Ghostbeater entered the fray suggests that they only knew Ash was being held hostage.   They insinuated that she was sacrificed to Baal by an unknowing Thomas (Thomas wanting to save her, Lacey calling him a lousy dad, etc) as a hostage which was how they got Linda there, but that was skipped right over and frankly it seemed like a crucial conjuncture.   Why didn't she and Linda stay at their own home (Because y'know they have to actually LIVE somewhere) while Thomas did his thing with Baal?  In fact Baal was so honed on in Ash why does he give a fig about Thomas?  The Pablo/Ruby friendship, the break-up, so to speak, between Thomas and Baal - all skimmed or skipped over.  I'd say it's the time compression the show suffers from but no...

*....because we had the random junkie appearance this week.  Was she supposed to be unsettling?  Funny?  Why did we need her?

* And Lacey and Thomas officially joined Brock and Chet in the pile of Characters That Didn't Need to Exist this season, and ALL of them had good potential to be something of interest.    The show continues to have problems translating its Anyone Can Die mantra into a series.  Give the a few scenes where we learn about them and nothing happens - it's what Raimi did to make us care about Annie in 2.  It's just disappointing, and judging from Rob Tapert's comments on the extra they seem to think 'anyone can die in Evil Dead' is a blanket excuse to avoid actually creating characters that aren't stock cartoons.  Television is a different discipline from film.  

*  How the hell did Ash get that tracker on Baal?  Was it during their physical fight last episode?

* Also yeah, iMO this episode weakens the impact of episode 7.
 
I have to say this episode seemed like it had way too much going on for its own good, but even with that I was very perplexed by how Lacey goes from being in the room in Brock's house while Pablo was dealing with his issues to being a Deadite in the asylum with no explanation. Then she had the staple gun fight with Pablo before she ripped her dad's head off which was pretty cool even though I assumed Baal would be the one to take Thomas out. Now when it comes to the puppet I was happy to see it had a working chainsaw along with white eyes after all, and in the aftermath of Ashy Slashy trying to chow down on Kelly and drown her in pee when Kelly punched Linda in the face and vice versa that was totally unexpected for me. However, the two of them also had a great exchange after that with the "ignite a fire inside of you," along with the "You didn't think I could handle it" conversation which help the two in the future for however long they manage to stick together. Ash's plan was simple looking back, but even though it brought about the end of poor Pablo... but the reactions of everyone as he fell apart were fantastic. It looked like Kelly was going to blow chunks before the credits rolled.


/Sorry for the quick post, but it is 5 o'clock.
 
[font=Arial, sans-serif]The half hour format is becoming a real distraction.[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Everything has to be crammed in, sped up, or skipped, in order for the story to meet to truncated runtime.[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Death of a loved one isn’t flinched at, pacing is all over the place, and plot holes are rapidly increasing.[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Also, can we please, PLEASE abandon the lame, insistent, juvenile, sex jokes already? They are embarrassingly awful.[/font]

Ashy Slashy was cool though. Also, Pablo :(
 
MaidOfKandar said:
* The number of plot holes and time skips this week were ridiculous. How did Lacey get possessed? Was it just because she went with Thomas to the asylum. They insinuated that she was sacrificed to Baal by an unknowing Thomas, but that was skipped right over and frankly it seemed like a crucial conjuncture. The Pablo/Ruby friendship, the break-up, so to speak, between Thomas and Baal - all skimmed or skipped over. I'd say it's the time compression the show suffers from but no...
Click to expand...

They had already lost me when they revealed that the ending scene with Linda from last episode was real and that she was being forced by Baal to say those things to Ash because he had taken Lacey hostage, even though both Lacey and Linda were safe and sound with the rest of the gang in the house when we last saw them. Sorry, but... What? How? When? Why? Why take Lacey? Why take Linda? If he went into the house to get them, why didn’t he attack the others when they were at their most defenseless dealing with Pablo? Why didn’t he try to kill Pablo while he had Ash knocked out? How did he get Lacey and Linda separated from the group? When did he take them? What does Baal actually want? Does he want the book destroyed? Ash killed? Ruby submitted to his will? Why didn’t he destroy the book in hell before coming to our world? Why did he come to our world in the first place? If he can control other people’s minds to do what he wants like he did with Emery, why didn’t he just do the same with Linda instead of taking Lacey to blackmail her? If he can change his appearance at will without killing them for their skin, why didn’t he just turn into Linda and play the part himself? If he can change his appearance at will, why does he need to take their skin? If he can induce realer-than-real illusions and make people see what he wants them to see, why did he need anybody to be there at all? None of it makes any logical sense. Baal is either an arrogant idiot or he really isn’t the super powerful demon extraordinaire everybody keeps saying he is and his powers are actually pretty minor. I mean, c’mon, he had to resort to kidnapping people like a regular thug and play dress up just to sell his illusion to Ash. No wonder it didn't work and he went out like a chump. At this point, even Eligos from last season is looking like a more formidable demon than Baal to me.

MaidOfKandar said:
*....because we had the random junkie appearance this week. Was she supposed to be unsettling? Funny?
Click to expand...

I think neither. I think she was there to show that the junkie was the person Ash was actually talking to during his illusion when he thought he was talking to Kelly. Which raises even more questions about last episode. Did Baal put her there? Was everything happening in real time? Since the puppet was an actual physical demon, it means Ash was interacting with actual people and objects during it. How long did that illusion take? Does this mean the security guards were the orderlies Ash was interacting with during his vision? By the way, what was up with the security guards? I thought the asylum was abandoned (it certainly seemed to be, being all decrepit and with random junkies roaming the hallways), so what were those uniformed security guards doing there? What was up with that security guard who was just wandering around the asylum seemingly oblivious to everything that was happening? Seriously, why did they felt the need to write in security guards? Just to have more people to kill?

To simply skip all of the connective tissue between the last episode and this one is just bad storytelling. The worst part of it all is that they could have completely avoided this convoluted mess by simplifying Baal’s plans and making all of last episode just an illusion inside Ash’s head induced by Baal. Absolutely none of it was real. There. Done. That would have taken the story to the exact same place it ended up going, but it would give them the extra running time they needed to properly develop and execute everything else and it would’ve avoided all of these glaring plot issues.

MaidOfKandar said:
* And Lacey and Thomas officially joined Brock and Chet in the pile of Characters That Didn't Need to Exist this season, and ALL of them had good potential to be something of interest. The show continues to have problems translating its Anyone Can Die mantra into a series. Give the a few scenes where we learn about them and nothing happens - it's what Raimi did to make us care about Annie in 2.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.

MaidOfKandar said:
* How the hell did Ash get that tracker on Baal? Was it during their physical fight last episode?
Click to expand...

Good point.

MaidOfKandar said:
* Also yeah, iMO this episode weakens the impact of episode 7.
Click to expand...

It definitely does.

Sigh… I know I said I wouldn’t over-analyze things this week and was actively trying to avoid it, but the more I read you guys' opinions on it and think about it, the more grumpy and disgruntled I get.
 
Kind of a meh episode. I like how Kelly gargles a pan of piss and gets up like it was nothing.
 
honestly at this point with all the plot holes and inconveniences that i've stopped caring about them all together because i honestly just feel tearing my hair out by how much there is and really it's just not worth it anymore, i know a big shocker coming from me as i like to find the little details and try to connect the episodes but i've kinda reached my breaking point on them overall and i'm probably going to go for the simple explanations at this point, because really it's just not worth it anymore *sigh*


-Baal probably had lacey possessed by the kandarian demon with emery and linda not knowing and as he said himself "I LIKE TO KEEP PEOPLE ON THERE TOES" 

-Baal probably had all the people in real life projected into ash's mind as something else entirely but in reality baal killed them all while keeping some aspects real (The puppet and linda) 

-I'm gonna take a wild guess and say all these event's played out within mere hours of each other and that's as far as i'm going with it.  

-A lot of off-screen relationship building stuff probably happened ruby and pablo that we didn't see and we got to see some of that in this episode.  

-Ash probably had the tracker in his duffle bag the entire time without baal's knowledge of it being in there

There, simple and to the point with no over analyzing.
 
Kain said:
Kind of a meh episode. I like how Kelly gargles a pan of piss and gets up like it was nothing.
Click to expand...

That was one of those moments I expected Kelly to drop a few choice four letter words after getting up, but sadly there was no reaction whatsoever.
 
DyD said:
MaidOfKandar said:
* The number of plot holes and time skips this week were ridiculous.  How did Lacey get possessed?  Was it just because she went with Thomas to the asylum.  They insinuated that she was sacrificed to Baal by an unknowing Thomas, but that was skipped right over and frankly it seemed like a crucial conjuncture.  The Pablo/Ruby friendship, the break-up, so to speak, between Thomas and Baal - all skimmed or skipped over.  I'd say it's the time compression the show suffers from but no...
Click to expand...

They had already lost me when they revealed that the ending scene with Linda from last episode was real and that she was being forced by Baal to say those things to Ash because he had taken Lacey hostage, even though both Lacey and Linda were safe and sound with the rest of the gang in the house when we last saw them. Sorry, but... What? How? When? Why? Why take Lacey? Why take Linda? If he went into the house to get them, why didn’t he attack the others when they were at their most defenseless dealing with Pablo? Why didn’t he try to kill Pablo while he had Ash knocked out? How did he get Lacey and Linda separated from the group? When did he take them? What does Baal actually want? Does he want the book destroyed? Ash killed? Ruby submitted to his will? Why didn’t he destroy the book in hell before coming to our world? Why did he come to our world in the first place? If he can control other people’s minds to do what he wants like he did with Emery, why didn’t he just do the same with Linda instead of taking Lacey to blackmail her? If he can change his appearance at will without killing them for their skin, why didn’t he just turn into Linda and play the part himself? If he can change his appearance at will, why does he need to take their skin? If he can induce realer-than-real illusions and make people see what he wants them to see, why did he need anybody to be there at all? None of it makes any logical sense. Baal is either an arrogant idiot or he really isn’t the super powerful demon extraordinaire everybody keeps saying he is and his powers are actually pretty minor. I mean, c’mon, he had to resort to kidnapping people like a regular thug and play dress up just to sell his illusion to Ash. No wonder it didn't work and he went out like a chump. At this point, even Eligos from last season is looking like a more formidable demon than Baal to me.

MaidOfKandar said:
*....because we had the random junkie appearance this week.  Was she supposed to be unsettling?  Funny?
Click to expand...

I think neither. I think she was there to show that the junkie was the person Ash was actually talking to during his illusion when he thought he was talking to Kelly. Which raises even more questions about last episode. Did Baal put her there? Was everything happening in real time? Since the puppet was an actual physical demon, it means Ash was interacting with actual people and objects during it. How long did that illusion take? Does this mean the security guards were the orderlies Ash was interacting with during his vision? By the way, what was up with the security guards? I thought the asylum was abandoned (it certainly seemed to be, being all decrepit and with random junkies roaming the hallways), so what were those uniformed security guards doing there? What was up with that security guard who was just wandering around the asylum seemingly oblivious to everything that was happening? Seriously, why did they felt the need to write in security guards? Just to have more people to kill?

To simply skip all of the connective tissue between the last episode and this one is just bad storytelling. The worst part of it all is that they could have completely avoided this convoluted mess by simplifying Baal’s plans and making all of last episode just an illusion inside Ash’s head induced by Baal. Absolutely none of it was real. There. Done. That would have had taken the story to the exact same place it ended up going, but it would give them the extra running time they needed to properly develop and execute everything else and it would’ve avoided all of these glaring plot issues.

MaidOfKandar said:
* And Lacey and Thomas officially joined Brock and Chet in the pile of Characters That Didn't Need to Exist this season, and ALL of them had good potential to be something of interest.    The show continues to have problems translating its Anyone Can Die mantra into a series.  Give the a few scenes where we learn about them and nothing happens - it's what Raimi did to make us care about Annie in 2.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.

MaidOfKandar said:
*  How the hell did Ash get that tracker on Baal?  Was it during their physical fight last episode?
Click to expand...

Good point.

MaidOfKandar said:
* Also yeah, iMO this episode weakens the impact of episode 7.
Click to expand...

It definitely does.

Sigh… I know I said I wouldn’t over-analyze things this week and was actively trying to avoid it, but the more I read you guys' opinions on it and think about it, the more grumpy and disgruntled I get.
Click to expand...

See, that scene opened up even more questions for me.  Linda was on the porch with Kelly but we see them moving back toward the d door as we get Ash's POV.  The townspeople aren't apt to trust Baal anymore at this point; Nobody's going to stop them from dragging these people off?  Also Thomas was RIGHT WITH Baal.  How did they all get separated?  

RE the junkie: Ash kind of imagined her as being dead, so there's another plot hole.  I'll give them a pass on the security guards, people who own abandoned properties will hire people to patrol the property to make sure they don't end up with property damage.

Also there's no shame in analyzing.



Joem1k said:
honestly at this point with all the plot holes and inconveniences that i've stopped caring about them all together because i honestly just feel tearing my hair out by how much there is and really it's just not worth it anymore, i know a big shocker coming from me as i like to find the little details and try to connect the episodes but i've kinda reached my breaking point on them overall and i'm probably going to go for the simple explanations at this point, because really it's just not worth it anymore *sigh*


-Baal probably had lacey possessed by the kandarian demon with emery and linda not knowing and as he said himself "I LIKE TO KEEP PEOPLE ON THERE TOES" 

-Baal probably had all the people in real life projected into ash's mind as something else entirely but in reality baal killed them all while keeping some aspects real (The puppet and linda) 

-I'm gonna take a wild guess and say all these event's played out within mere hours of each other and that's as far as i'm going with it.  

-A lot of off-screen relationship building stuff probably happened ruby and pablo that we didn't see and we got to see some of that in this episode.  

-Ash probably had the tracker in his duffle bag the entire time without baal's knowledge of it being in there

There, simple and to the point with no over analyzing.
Click to expand...

Now that brings up an interesting point - was Lacey possessed while they were all in the car?  It would make sense with her interest in Pablo, and if Baal was using her to get closer to the gang.

I'd agree with the idea about Baal.  Was it implied that he took Ash's duffle with them in the first place?  I just know the gun and saw were still on him after he decapitated Cheryl.
 
@Maid 

Yes the duffle bag was there at the asylum it was there at the end of delusion as baal was packing away the drawing's so i have a pretty good feeling ash probably put the tracker in the duffle bag. 

And to answer how baal got linda and lacey to the asylum, it's quite simple. 


-We were shown a shot of lacey and linda on the porch arguing about something as the crowd begins to leave, i'm gonna assume emery and baal probably quickly dragged them away to the asylum with ash, and before anyone brings up ruby kelly and pablo. I bet you 10 bucks they were still upstairs tending to pablo making sure he was ok before they realized what all just transpired and then i'm gonna assume one of them brings up the pet tracker and they use that to track them down to asylum as i mentioned before which i'm gonna safely assume probably took them hours on end to track them to the right location which would probably give baal enough time to do his thing at the asylum in the mean time. 

and i'm going to re-write my part about lacey 


-I'm going to bet lacey was probably killed and possessed at the asylum by baal just to torture emery and linda because "I GOTTA KEEP THEM ON THERE TOES RIGHT   ;) "
 
The thing is, if we need to think of elaborate theories and possibilities just to link basic plot point A to basic plot point B and force the story to make any sense, that still means the writers aren't doing such a great job. It still means the story is full of gaps and holes that shouldn't be there. It's either a problem of writing or a problem of editing. Either way, it's a problem. There could actually be a number of reasons behind it... Lack of running time, lack of revision, lack of guidance, lack of talent, lack of effort or lack of caring. Whatever it is, it's still a problem. No matter how many possible theories we can come up with on our own to explain things, it's still a problem.
 
@Joe - RE the duffle bag - that makes sense. But it also leaves us wondering how and why Baal never checked it out before bringing it inside. His hubris really is an Achilles heel.

Linda and Lacey seem to be talking but both are pretty distracted by Ash's getting knocked out (yes, I just rewatched Trapped Inside before I came back to post this); that still leaves us with the notion that Thomas randomly brought both of them to this abandoned asylum while under hypnosis and they willingly entered the place. . Also him turning Lacey didn't torment Linda in the end- she didn't even witness her death - it just made her stronger. It tormented Thomas, but we still have no idea what happened between them beyond the fact that Thomas realized he was being manipulated at last. Doesn't help that the last time we saw Baal and Thomas together Thomas was holding Ash still so Baal could conk him on the head.

(Also this leaves us to wonder where Kelly is in this fray. Still helping Pablo upstairs?)

@DyD: My bet is that it's a combo of the editing and writing; the show keeps cutting entire scenes and plot points for time (IE: the scene in the diner with Ruby last season), which is turning everything into disjointed slush.
 
MaidOfKandar said:
@Joe - 

(Also this leaves us to wonder where Kelly is in this fray.  Still helping Pablo upstairs?)
Click to expand...

- I'm going to say that Kel and Ruby were still upstairs making sure pablo was fine and probably tending to ruby's old wound, the last time we see them in that episode pablo is still in a lot of pain and anguish so yeah i'm gonna safely assume those two stayed upstairs to make sure he was fine before they went back downstairs to realize everyone was gone including ash.
 
Yeah, that's my best guess. Pablo seemed hale and hearty in this episode (for the most part) so there had to be a time gap in there.
 
I figured the previous episode happened over a series of days, possibly as long as a week. At least that seemed to be the case from Ash's reckoning, what with the multiple electrocution therapy events, etc, although the amount of time passed could have been part of the illusion. That would explain the time period concerning how Linda and her daughter end up with Baal, and also Pablo's apparent recovery. Baal uses the girl as leverage on Linda and her husband, but secretly turns her into a deadite, cos he's evil like that.

I kind of like the idea she might have been possessed right from the events concerning the car though. A deadite sleeper agent, if you like.

That does raise the question as to why it took so long for the others to catch up but as Pablonomicon was central to their plan to defeat Baal, it makes sense that they wait until he is mobile. Likely the girls did a spot of tracking in the meantime.

Granted, that's quite a gap to fill, and a bit more explanation in the episode would perhaps be welcome, but it didn't bother me that much.

I have just caught up with the episode and overall I liked it a lot. Mixed feelings concerning Pablos fate, but what a way to go out!

Ray, Ray, Ray, don't post Pablo is resting in pieces on your Twitter feed though! Not all your followers are up-to-date with the show. Because of that, I kind of guessed something like this was likely... but the performance did not disappoint.

I'm enjoying this series a lot.

I'm still hoping we get some explanation concerning Ruby's role as a Knowby,but I think that ship has sailed now. An early idea concerning the character which survived the cutting room floor, I guess.
 
Mardeadite said:
I'm still hoping we get some explanation concerning Ruby's role as a Knowby,but I think that ship has sailed now. An early idea concerning the character which survived the cutting room floor, I guess.
Click to expand...

I think they changed her name to Ruby Cross, but Ruby really only needs one name as she is kind of like Cher.
 
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