Ash vs Evil Dead S03E07: Twist and Shout Discussion [SPOILERS]

[DyD]

Ok, folks... Are you ready for a shock? Brace yourselves, cause here it comes...

I FUCKIN' LOVED THIS EPISODE.

Will be back later with more thoughts.

 

[Muzzlehatch]

It’s always such a torture to have to wait extra 24h for a new episodes release here in Krautland ...

 

[Joem1k]

See,this is what i don't get here with this argument with the underworld being cheap because ST made it big.

No the two way world stuff has been done a billion times over in books,games,movies and tv shows the concept itself is nothing new at all and ST isn't the be all end all on the concept all they did was added a sci fi flair to it and hp lovecraftian creatures to it and boom original concept.

you could call this whole franchise a cheap hp lovecraft imitation since the creators of this franchise borrowed heavily from him and his concepts yet i don't hear anyone calling the concepts they created for this world cheap.

If anything i look at it as a homage, and it's uncharted territory for this franchise so im interested in seeing what they do with it.

 

[Guy]

It's just a shame to do it so close to a massive show doing similar. In ten years when people are watching the Evil Dead series without the context of the current TV landscape, nobody will care.

I love Stranger Things, but I'm not usually a fan of supernatural dimensions being dropped on shows with a supernatural angle, it tends to be the go to place for cross-media products (Indiana Jones video games, Buffy video games, Ghostbuster video games, Evil Dead video games). I'm 50/50 with Evil Dead doing it because we always knew there was a hell dimension out there that Evil was coming from (via the Necronomicon), but in my mind it was more of a traditional hellscape, not just this reality with a green lighting filter.

I'm willing to wait it out and see where they go with it, but I really wanted Ash's eventual (and let's face it, inevitable) trip to hell to be genuinely...hellish.

 

[Joem1k]

Spoiler

From what i gathered, that place isn't hell that brandy and kelly are currently in but more like the inbetween plain of existence of the human world and hell itself.

Earthly plain
The deadlands
Hell

Wasn't there a portal to hell in ash's trunk in s2? i remember them explicitly stating that.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

Spoiler: Spoilers!

I agree with Joe that it's supposed to be a limbo state of some kind from which souls can return or pass along to hell/heaven (as has happened with Kaya/Brock/Chet/Cheryl). I'm reserving my judgement 'til next week when we get a better look at things, but I do agree that they have the card stacked against them when it comes to producing something original in this theme with ST breathing down their necks.

Yep, they definitely implied that in season 2, and it was because Pablo incanted a spell to cause a porthole so they could chuck the book into it. I think there was something about the book being sentient as well involved But they kind of dropped the idea of a sentient book sometime after S2.

 

[waifugenerator]

Spoiler: Stranger Things

I hope this is it's own Evil Dead-esque thing but the ending showed a Demogorgan-y figure and sound effects so I'm apprehensive

Also I just realized that the figure that followed Ruby and pushed her into the flames outside of the Brujo's house in S1 was a Dark One, it had the same flowing robe and silhouette and even called her a traitor. Maybe the demon that told her "we can still be together if you want" was Kaya???

Also in regards to this episode, I LOVED

Spoiler

Ruby sadistically enjoying being disemboweled and then her meltdown that followed, it also looks like the female KoS will stick around for a bit. I'm assuming she'll die in the rift though

EDIT: I'm curious as to what will happen to Ruby after this episode? She kind of just walked away

 

[Sutter Cane]

See,this is what i don't get here with this argument with the underworld being cheap because ST made it big.

No the two way world stuff has been done a billion times over in books,games,movies and tv shows the concept itself is nothing new at all and ST isn't the be all end all on the concept all they did was added a sci fi flair to it and hp lovecraftian creatures to it and boom original concept.

you could call this whole franchise a cheap hp lovecraft imitation since the creators of this franchise borrowed heavily from him and his concepts yet i don't hear anyone calling the concepts they created for this world cheap.

If anything i look at it as a homage, and it's uncharted territory for this franchise so im interested in seeing what they do with it.

The Underworld is being cheap because it look cheap. I mean, they just added a cheap flashy green haze effect on the current location. They should have made in a way similar to Evil Dead 2, when professor Knowby appear from the other side. Chaotic and tortured. They could have created the underworld in a million different manners. But unfortunately, they just choose to follow the footstep of another CURRENT popular show. It's not because it's called "the underwold" that it should look like a dark version of our reality. This is my main point.

Yes, this kind of double edge reality have been already made a million time. before . I didn't say Strangers things reinvented the wheel but, it currently the MAIN plot of this series, and the main interest. This is why many people will compare this to this show. They have the right to make it this way, but they will need to accept criticisme.

Evil Dead is influenced by H.P. Lovecraft the same way Tolkien works influenced many heroic fantasy flicks, video games, books etc.... Both together, they are the foundation of many things. Did someone create something new nowaday? I don't thing so, but there's way you can make it your OWNS. This is also my other point.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

Maybe the demon that told her "we can still be together if you want" was Kaya???

I'd always presumed that was Baal; makes sense if it was Kaya tho!

 

[Joem1k]

The Underworld is being cheap because it look cheap. I mean, they just added a cheap flashy green haze effect on the current location. They should have made in a way similar to Evil Dead 2, when professor Knowby appear from the other side. Chaotic and tortured. They could have created the underworld in a million different manners. But unfortunately, they just choose to follow the footstep of another CURRENT popular show. It's not because it's called "the underwold" that it should look like a dark version of our reality. This is my main point.

I disagree.

You've got to take into account that the budget this season was very spaced out and divided up, this show doesn't have a multi million dollar budget to make a whole other world like stranger things can and flesh out the environment to their own liking and their own vision, that's like asking the high school stage play to produce a big budgeted broadway play with unique sets and designs. I'm gonna say they went the ST route for a reason and not because they were trying to copy cat it on purpose but probably because they just didn't have it in the budget to do a more elaborate set or setting on the budget they have.

This whole ST comparison in general is just complete bullocks, yes they are similar in concept and how the world looks but the execution for both worlds are very different.

Ones a realm for lost souls that roam the earth endlessly or their souls are consumed by the caretaker of that realm.

The Upside down is a whole alternate dimension wanting to overlap earth.


Side Note
if you think about it, this little in-between realm is basically evil's trash chute for consuming souls and that reaper looking entity is the caretaker who sorts out the souls and feeds the dogs down below.

Plus the color green and the green haze is the perfect color and template for a realm for lost souls. I don't see how it's not fitting for that type of realm.


@MaidOfKandar

I'm gonna say that was a foreshadowing scene for ruby being a dark one OR foreshadowing the dark ones catching up with ruby.

 

[DyD]

Let's get the biggest positive out of the way first: Ash in this episode was done right. For the first time since the show started I recognized this character as Ash. He wasn't just a moronic buffoon, but the true no-nonsense "everyman hero" we all know and love. This was Evil Dead 2 Ash! He was purposeful and wasn't spewing dumb lines and doing stupid things in every scene. His back and forth with Evil Ash was great. Bruce knocked it out of the park with his performance as both Ash and Evil Ash. For the first time in a long time he wasn't just phoning it in. I also wanted to see more of this Evil Ash, but he was such a highlight in this episode and his demise was so satisfying (that awesome "you missed" bit) that I'm not even disappointed. For the first time in the series they handled the tone correctly, perfectly balancing the humor and the horror. The horror bits were actually taken seriously, and boy, evil Ash hacking up those screaming teenagers with abandon was just glorious. That was pure Evil Dead. This episode was creepy, macabre, suspenseful, unrelenting and INTENSE. That's what this show has been missing since day one. It didn't shy away from anything. This is how you should use that carte blanche you have to do whatever you want in the show instead of dangling a limp dick on Ash's forehead. The use of Joe LoDuca's score in this episode was terrific and so was the editing. That foreboding, atmospheric choice of music to cue in the credits and the way it was edited? PERFECTION. The dialogue and even the jokes and one liners landed perfectly for me (I sincerely chuckled at Ash shoving the cup in his pants during the "getting ready" montage). The writing was actually pretty damn good and even clever, in dialogue, structure and scene building. For the first time the stakes felt real. Characters were allowed to react sincerely to what was going on and show real emotion instead of being forced to break the atmosphere and constantly ruin the moment with lame jokes. No more of that crap they pulled when Brock and Pablo died in season 2. For the first time I felt involved in what was going on. For the first time I cared about what would happen to these characters. For the first time there was weight of consequence to what was going on. And finally, for the first time, I was left watching the credits of an episode with a big stupid grin on my face. This was, without a doubt, the best episode in the show so far.

It wasn't all perfect. There were still some things that didn't quite work for me, but it was all mostly superficial. I still absolutely hate how they handled almost everything in the story so far to get here, but nearly everything in this episode was handled marvelously. This episode shows how good Ash vs. Evil Dead could've been and it fills me with hope that it will at least go out in a blaze of glory. I sincerely hope they keep this approach and sustain this quality for the remaining three episodes in the season and don't screw it up by immediately going back to old habits on the next episode, as they've been prone to do.

Random thought: It was really odd that they went through all the trouble of coming up with the idea of Evil Ash's flesh and bone chainsaw hand, designing it, creating the make-up effect for it and developing it throughout the season only to have him hack it off without ever getting the chance to use it after fully grown. Still, the hacking off scene was so good I don't even care.

See,this is what i don't get here with this argument with the underworld being cheap because ST made it big.

No the two way world stuff has been done a billion times over in books,games,movies and tv shows the concept itself is nothing new at all and ST isn't the be all end all on the concept all they did was added a sci fi flair to it and hp lovecraftian creatures to it and boom original concept.

you could call this whole franchise a cheap hp lovecraft imitation since the creators of this franchise borrowed heavily from him and his concepts yet i don't hear anyone calling the concepts they created for this world cheap.

If anything i look at it as a homage, and it's uncharted territory for this franchise so im interested in seeing what they do with it.

Oh, that was an OBVIOUS Stranger Things rip off, probably because they still haven't been able to figure out what the audience for this show is, so they're desperately trying to cater to what's popular right now to see if they can get those ratings up a few ticks. I don't care if that alternate dimension isn't really the same thing as the upside down when it comes to the mythology. They can call it the "deadlands" and tie it to Evil Dead mythology anyway they want, what matters is that in practice and execution, it's apparently going to look and feel exactly the same as the upside down and ultimately serve the exact same narrative purpose. It's a drab, post-apocalyptic copy of the regular world with a murky green filter over it where people can get lost so that other people can try to rescue them. There are also other small things to corroborate the idea that they're trying to ride the Stranger Things hype wave, such as focusing the introduction to the deadlands around a high school dance and the weird, blunt and forced use of 80's pop music both on a scene and on the marketing for the season. I know the idea of a "dark dimension mirroring our own" isn't exclusive to Stranger Things, but it's really hard to say with a straight face that it's just a coincidence that Ash vs. Evil Dead decided to introduce this element on the heels of a very successful show that prominently features an almost identical element. But here's the bottom line to me: If they actually manage to do something interesting with it and find ways to make it more than just a copy, I truly don't care about the rip off.

 

[Sutter Cane]

I disagree.

You've got to take into account that the budget this season was very spaced out and divided up, this show doesn't have a multi million dollar budget to make a whole other world like stranger things can and flesh out the environment to their own liking and their own vision, that's like asking the high school stage play to produce a big budgeted broadway play with unique sets and designs. I'm gonna say they went the ST route for a reason and not because they were trying to copy cat it on purpose but probably because they just didn't have it in the budget to do a more elaborate set or setting on the budget they have.

This whole ST comparison in general is just complete bullocks, yes they are similar in concept and how the world looks but the execution for both worlds are very different.

Ones a realm for lost souls that roam the earth endlessly or their souls are consumed by the caretaker of that realm.

The Upside down is a whole alternate dimension wanting to overlap earth.


Side Note
if you think about it, this little in-between realm is basically evil's trash chute for consuming souls and that reaper looking entity is the caretaker who sorts out the souls and feeds the dogs down below.

Plus the color green and the green haze is the perfect color and template for a realm for lost souls. I don't see how it's not fitting for that type of realm.


@MaidOfKandar

I'm gonna say that was a foreshadowing scene for ruby being a dark one OR foreshadowing the dark ones catching up with ruby.

I don't have to take into account the budget of a series when I watching it. The only thing I take into account is what I see when I watch the movie. It could be low or high budget, I don't care, I'll take in consideration the creativity and the way the film director will tell the story. In Evil Dead 2 Sam Raimi did managed to show professor Knowby coming back from the other side succesfully & at low scale. He didn't have the budget to make Evil Dead 2 as Army of Darkness, but did very well to introduce it at the end. All special fx was very well done for a 1987 movie. What I mean, It's all about creativity.

So It's just a weird coincidence that both show feature another similar world with a gigantic monster or demon coming from it? I personally don't believe it. You can give it whatever name to the location and the purpose of it, but it share the similar concept. Yes it will be probably different in execution. You're totally rights to disagree but, I still think it was lazy way to grab fans from another popular series.

All I say is that they could have done it differently, at low scale and more effectively. You don't have to get a full broadway set to show another world. It was already introduced in a way in ED 2, why not stick with what you already got in hands? If you read the ED2 scenario :

"The wind in the room suddenly stops. He blows out his breath and
watches it vaporize. The steaming face of Raymond Knowby emerges from
the wall. A life like spirit made of swirling smoke and mist."

I don't know, there's something more poetic and more spiritual than just showing the dark side of the earth in gazing green. You mentioned it, Evil Dead was influenced by H.P. Lovecraft, You put the finger right on it. This kind of "world of the occult vs unkown realm to man" is missing on the series. They probably should have explore the HP Lovecraft mythos even more. This kind of flavor is clearly missing and I kind of realized it when I saw your post. Now It's just : "There it is, right in your face!". Not showing s often more powerful than just show everything.

 

[Joem1k]

Going to quote a famous philosopher.

"You can't always get what you want" - Mick Jagger

Kidding aside, agree to disagree. it's what we got, hate it or love it. But i still stand by the notion it wasn't a ploy to bring in stranger things views and the move was purely due to budgetary reasons and it's only coming in for one episode this season so let's just drop it and move on to something else.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

And here are my final thoughts:

The Good

* The overall atmosphere, tone, writing and feel of the episode was amazingly well-done. They need to offer Caitlin Meares a staff position if they can lure her back from Warner Bros if we get a fourth season, it was that good. Like I said on Saturday, humor, horror and emotion finally collided in a proper way in the show and that was nice to see. It was actually tense in the way the show hasn't been in a very long time which is saying something.

* There was something genuinely sad about Ruby's kid going to that length to please his mother, only to have her ignore him and leave him there in a headless heap. Ruby's face did show a flicker of sorrow for a minute, but it mostly seemed to be for herself. Which is fitting since she's a demon, but even as a demon she has shown a little bit of mercy.

* Some great performances; Bruce's acting was top notch and again the subtle difference between Ash and his evil doppleganger was nicely present; I liked the little touch of the demon wiping his mouth with a napkin (though, as he did when he was a child, he left most of his face in a rather mess). Some of Bruce's best onscreen crying in ages. Excellent yeomen work by Ray and Arielle and Lucy.

* As Joe pointed out to me, Pablo has developed a second sense in dealing with Deadites. I'm glad he hasn't backslid in intelligence since brujo-ing.

* Ash was finally upset about all of the blood and carnage that's been trailing him! No disaffected jokey one-liners until he was kicking his twin's butt!

* The DJ at the dance not noticing anything that was happening until he got spattered with blood.

* Outright lifting that bit with the door from Carrie. I SEE YOU SHOW!

* The proper level of gore was achieved and yes, it was delivered with the right amount of drama. Actual oceans of blood! Realistic-looking chainsawings! And, to balance out weeks of boobs, unobscured Bruce Campbell double posterior! This is how you take advantage of your rating.


The Meh

* The frustrated potential between Ruby and her son. There was something really interesting there when he was young and naive under the fake-Ash bravado that they didn't really take advantage of due to killing the character off. I know WHY they did it, but it's still disappointing.

* Ruby's plot was really super convoluted if you think about it. She hinged years of planning on the caprice of a teenager and her innocent, inexperienced demon kid. It's fitting for her arrogance but for an ancient, immortal being she didn't really think ahead. As she said - she stalked Ash for years for this?!

* Everyone just letting Ruby walk out of the dance without doing a thing. Though that's understandable because y'know, ancient scary demoness, I'm surprised no one made a motion to stop her and then died on her way out.

* My jury's still out as to the originality of the whole Upside-Down/Purgatory we've got going on, but the neon green tones of it hurt my eyes.


The Bad

* The wobbly timeline, again.

* Ruby seemingly not giving a shit about her kid after years and years of her wanting to have a child of some kind. She finally establishes a legacy and instantly squanders it. Doesn't even yell 'look out' when he dies. They spent almost the whole season building him up and killing him off was a pretty cheap choice. The "I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids" speech was great tho.

* As I said on Twitter: "When you've been trapped in purgatory for centuries, it's hard to remember how many bullets are in a six-shooter."

* That techno/house song they played over the dance was an ear-grinder.

The Verdict

An excellent episode - probably the best of the season.

Things I Noticed:

Rachel's last name is Manning.

 

[Kevin]

Sorry for my late response. Been really sick with a flu of sorts. Anyways I finally watched the episode just now and overall enjoyed it. Definitely a lot more of an emotional ride then previous episode and you can tell that this season is wrapping up to emotionally end the series if it does not get renewed. I continue to be a big fan despite a few flaws with the show here and there. I'm not ready to say good-bye to this world and characters but unfortunately that will likely be chosen for me.

 

[DyD]

@MaidOfKandar - I agree with all your points about Ruby. I'm just glad all of that nonsense is finally over.

 

[Nick el Ass]

* Outright lifting that bit with the door from Carrie. I SEE YOU SHOW!

I have seen a couple of tips of the old hat to Carrie in this season with the way Brandy was covered in Brock's blood which was almost her "They're all going to laugh at you" moment minus her burning down anything.

An excellent episode - probably the best of the season.

There is no probably about it for me. After it was over I found myself sitting there thinking as I normally do if this episode had another 15 minutes tacked on it would have been perfect as I would have loved to see more Kelly/Kaya vs Pablo... and more Ash vs little Ash which would have catapulted it to the top of my list for the whole series. I just wish they would have let little Ash, or Bash (Baby Ash) keep the saw he was born with to differentiate the two instead of having him cut it off after standing there naked and covered in slime as Ruby pulls out a hacksaw. Unless it was non functional which I trust will be an issue addressed in any behind the scenes video.


/Also did Ruby manage to swipe a pair of duds from Ash when he wasn't looking, or did she stop to pick some up when she was on the road in preparation of his birth?!?

 

[deaditer12345]

This episode was awesome. I am so excited for the last few episodes! This season has had it's downfalls, but it is showing itself to be the best season of the show. This is definitely my favourite episode PERIOD, because of it's emotional weight and the perfect balance of comedy and horror.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

/Also did Ruby manage to swipe a pair of duds from Ash when he wasn't looking, or did she stop to pick some up when she was on the road in preparation of his birth?!?

HAH! That's a great question; maybe sha hand made them?

 

[Guy]

Interestingly AV Club rates this one of their lowest so far and claims it to be "further from Evil Dead than we've ever been".

Just to further show the huge gap in expectation between those on an Evil Dead forum and media critics.

https://tv.avclub.com/ash-vs-evil-dead-flips-upside-down-at-the-school-dance-1825096176