Ash vs Evil Dead S02 E10: Second Coming Discussion [SPOILERS]

DyD said:
The happy ending is the least of the finale's problems. If it turns out it was all an illusion, that still doesn't cover most of the illogical developments and plot holes in it. To me, the finale is a showcase of everything that was wrong with the season turned up to 11. Personally, I don't think there was anything good or satisfying about it at all. Nothing in it worked for me. By the way, you were probably the forum member that was the most critical of the show in general and even people who love the show are saying the finale was bad and unsatisfying. I don't mean this in an insulting manner or anything, but to see you of all people defending it is really weird.

Because it's bad but I'm comparing it to the rest of the season and what is limited by S03.

It's not really that illogical. They don't need to change the past if Pablo is already brought back/or can't be, they just need to get back.

If everything is an illuision in modern times, then someone is just finding the book in the illusionary time.

I hate time travel stuff--Ep 10 is the type of episode I wish they would have made all season long just without the 'illusions' and time travel.

If they do S03 right...

+ Force ghosts and victory parade are an illusion, including the cabin being burned down

+ Pablo IS still dead or exists as some rotting deadite thing.

+ They're still in the 80's

+ 80's Ruby is evil and has creepy kids
 
Ashenwraith said:
DyD said:
The happy ending is the least of the finale's problems. If it turns out it was all an illusion, that still doesn't cover most of the illogical developments and plot holes in it. To me, the finale is a showcase of everything that was wrong with the season turned up to 11. Personally, I don't think there was anything good or satisfying about it at all. Nothing in it worked for me. By the way, you were probably the forum member that was the most critical of the show in general and even people who love the show are saying the finale was bad and unsatisfying. I don't mean this in an insulting manner or anything, but to see you of all people defending it is really weird.

Because it's bad but I'm comparing it to the rest of the season and what is limited by S03.

It's not really that illogical. They don't need to change the past if Pablo is already brought back/or can't be, they just need to get back.

If everything is an illuision in modern times, then someone is just finding the book in the illusionary time.

I hate time travel stuff--Ep 10 is the type of episode I wish they would have made all season long just without the 'illusions' and time travel.

If they do S03 right...

+ Force ghosts and victory parade are an illusion, including the cabin being burned down

+ Pablo IS still dead or exists as some rotting deadite thing.

+ They're still in the 80's

+ 80's Ruby is evil and has creepy kids

Maybe I did not get it, but what was the demon spawn's purpose in the first place? Was there a real explanation? For me they were one of the least interesting elements of the show.
 
I think they were just supposed to be more powerful demonic entities than the desired deadites which were directly under Ruby's control. Well, until they wasn't, anyway.

They had those strange shadow powers, and it seemed that only the dagger could kill them, as adults anyway.

They were also supposed to be more intelligent than deadites although I saw little evidence of that.

They struck me as rather underused. I think maybe the writers were not sure what to do with them apart from giving Ruby that reason to join with Ash. I guess their modus operandi could get rather old quickly. There's a little unfold story there of how and why they rebelled against their mother. But since they're a product of the Evil it's not that surprising.

As to their origins, the implication seemed to be they were created by Ruby and Baal. As they are birthed into the world as fast growing babies via another conduit (Necronomicon/Pablo) I wonder how that works....

By the way, I wonder if Ruby's name in ancient times was Ashtoreth...
 
duke henry said:
[quote pid='8718' dateline='1481439109']
"And that hook for next season: let me guess: yet another young person grabs the book and messes around with it, screwing everything up and young Ruby manipulates them?"

Me: Exactly!  this is exactly what I meant when I said it would have been nice to see a big pink bow on the end of season 2, everything solved, fixed, and no need to simply become repetitive by forcing a 3rd season.  They should have just given it a good, satisfying, clean ending that made sense rather than drive it into the ground and ruin it just to make a few bucks on one more season.



They always said the goal was to have 5 seasons.
 
Hey, I just have some questions about this ep:

Questions:

1) Ash's hands: First his left one was bit by Henrietta, and nothing from that, then his new right one bit by Baal, then after it was cut off, it became animated?

2) Why would Raymond just leave Ash and Tanya in the cellar? He brought Tanya over as a replacement host, so...? Was he just worried about saving his own butt?

3) Who do you think killed Raymond: '82 Ruby and/or her kids?

4) Still confused about what Pablo's necklace/pendant had to do with the plot, entirely.

5) When '82 Ruby says, "You're with him," to Main Ruby, does she mean Ash, as she knows from the book?

6) During the Baal/Ash fight, '82 Ruby says she doesn't like it, is "changing the deal", then in the end, opens a portal to the netherworld and banishesd Baal back there? This confuses me.

7) Any theories on Ruby's actual history? I think: She is a Knowby, went back in time somehow, wrote the book, maybe also creating a time-loop in there in the process, somehow becomes immortal (hooking up with Baal?), and so forth.

8) How was Main Ruby the key for '82 Ruby getting what she wants?

9) The Ash line: "Then they're going to make you kill him;" then '82 Ruby's response: "You killed my babies?" doesn't make sense to me.

10) Why did Main Ruby, when passing the book to Kelly as she was dying, say that "she knows what to do" with it?

11) So Baal slices Pablo, puts his consciousness into his corpse, which got resurrected, with Baal now inside the skin, which he removed?

12) From where was Ash's chainsaw summoned from when it was in the tub?

13) How do you explain that, in S1E01, Ash read from the book, starting stuff from that, yet Main Ruby said she'd spent years cleaning up Ash's messes? Did reading from the book bring Ash's old hand to life?

14) How did Ash know Ruby and Baal were an item at one time?

15) '82 Ruby's, "Be a leader, not a follower," thing: Why was she told that by both '82 Ruby and her demon clone from an earlier ep? Any theories?

16) Baal said Pablo was in the underworld, but when Pablo comes back later, he didn't know that he died?

17) What became of the dagger? I missed that.

18) Please still help me in understanding Kelly's "toaster" comment from S02 E09. Kelly's exact quote while in the forest with Ruby was: "Incredible. We didn't even make it to the cabin before Ash's brilliant plan freaked the toaster."
 
Ash Williams Forever said:
Hey, I just have some questions about this ep:

Questions:

1) Ash's hands: First his left one was bit by Henrietta, and nothing from that, then his new right one bit by Baal, then after it was cut off, it became animated?

2) Why would Raymond just leave Ash and Tanya in the cellar? He brought Tanya over as a replacement host, so...? Was he just worried about saving his own butt?

3) Who do you think killed Raymond: '82 Ruby and/or her kids?

4) Still confused about what Pablo's necklace/pendant had to do with the plot, entirely.

5) When '82 Ruby says, "You're with him," to Main Ruby, does she mean Ash, as she knows from the book?

6) During the Baal/Ash fight, '82 Ruby says she doesn't like it, is "changing the deal", then in the end, opens a portal to the netherworld and banishesd Baal back there? This confuses me.

7) Any theories on Ruby's actual history? I think: She is a Knowby, went back in time somehow, wrote the book, maybe also creating a time-loop in there in the process, somehow becomes immortal (hooking up with Baal?), and so forth.

8) How was Main Ruby the key for '82 Ruby getting what she wants?

9) The Ash line: "Then they're going to make you kill him;" then '82 Ruby's response: "You killed my babies?" doesn't make sense to me.

10) Why did Main Ruby, when passing the book to Kelly as she was dying, say that "she knows what to do" with it?

11) So Baal slices Pablo, puts his consciousness into his corpse, which got resurrected, with Baal now inside the skin, which he removed?

12) From where was Ash's chainsaw summoned from when it was in the tub?

13) How do you explain that, in S1E01, Ash read from the book, starting stuff from that, yet Main Ruby said she'd spent years cleaning up Ash's messes? Did reading from the book bring Ash's old hand to life?

14) How did Ash know Ruby and Baal were an item at one time?

15) '82 Ruby's, "Be a leader, not a follower," thing: Why was she told that by both '82 Ruby and her demon clone from an earlier ep? Any theories?

16) Baal said Pablo was in the underworld, but when Pablo comes back later, he didn't know that he died?

17) What became of the dagger? I missed that.

18) Please still help me in understanding Kelly's "toaster" comment from S02 E09. Kelly's exact quote while in the forest with Ruby was: "Incredible. We didn't even make it to the cabin before Ash's brilliant plan freaked the toaster."
 
Indeed,it is difficult to answer those questions...most of them are probably plot holes being honest...but the whole "growing hand thing" maybe has an actual meaning, being an implicit explanation that no matter what you try to change in the past, that some facts will happen whatsoever.

On the other hand (no pun intented :) ) there is something i have been wondering about the post credits scene (someone taking the book from the ground)...is there any chance this hand belongs to young cheryl/linda? (It seemed like a lady hand and voice to me). 

That being said,what about this: what if the events on last episode indeed had influence in current timeline, but not the ones seen on the epilogue? Maybe they got trapped in a time loop arrange by ruby but things in the current present time line are much worse...? Maybe ash is the evil guy now, ruling over evil forces...maybe cheryl is alive and battles against him now...endless possibilities here, don't you think?
 
Most of those are plot holes but:

2: it's definitely supposed to be a moment of panic/cowardice on his part that makes him leave them both there, he's trying to save himself.

3: You can see 80s Ruby for a second in his rear view mirror, so it was her.

4: In season 1 it was a protective talisman that prevented the Deadites from entering our realm. They forgot that this season.

7: She's supposed to be one of the ancient old ones, and was apparently never a Knowby.

13: That is one of the biggest dropped balls. It looked like they were setting Ruby up as the lawful evil who had been saving the world from Ash for years but they dumped the plotline.

17: Dagger was last seen taped to Ash's gun in episode one of this season.

@irusisiul , I'm pretty sure it's not Linda - the voice was a tad bit too valley girl to me!
 
irusisiul said:
Ash Williams Forever said:
Hey, I just have some questions about this ep:

Questions:

1) Ash's hands: First his left one was bit by Henrietta, and nothing from that, then his new right one bit by Baal, then after it was cut off, it became animated?

2) Why would Raymond just leave Ash and Tanya in the cellar? He brought Tanya over as a replacement host, so...? Was he just worried about saving his own butt?

3) Who do you think killed Raymond: '82 Ruby and/or her kids?

4) Still confused about what Pablo's necklace/pendant had to do with the plot, entirely.

5) When '82 Ruby says, "You're with him," to Main Ruby, does she mean Ash, as she knows from the book?

6) During the Baal/Ash fight, '82 Ruby says she doesn't like it, is "changing the deal", then in the end, opens a portal to the netherworld and banishesd Baal back there? This confuses me.

7) Any theories on Ruby's actual history? I think: She is a Knowby, went back in time somehow, wrote the book, maybe also creating a time-loop in there in the process, somehow becomes immortal (hooking up with Baal?), and so forth.

8) How was Main Ruby the key for '82 Ruby getting what she wants?

9) The Ash line: "Then they're going to make you kill him;" then '82 Ruby's response: "You killed my babies?" doesn't make sense to me.

10) Why did Main Ruby, when passing the book to Kelly as she was dying, say that "she knows what to do" with it?

11) So Baal slices Pablo, puts his consciousness into his corpse, which got resurrected, with Baal now inside the skin, which he removed?

12) From where was Ash's chainsaw summoned from when it was in the tub?

13) How do you explain that, in S1E01, Ash read from the book, starting stuff from that, yet Main Ruby said she'd spent years cleaning up Ash's messes? Did reading from the book bring Ash's old hand to life?

14) How did Ash know Ruby and Baal were an item at one time?

15) '82 Ruby's, "Be a leader, not a follower," thing: Why was she told that by both '82 Ruby and her demon clone from an earlier ep? Any theories?

16) Baal said Pablo was in the underworld, but when Pablo comes back later, he didn't know that he died?

17) What became of the dagger? I missed that.

18) Please still help me in understanding Kelly's "toaster" comment from S02 E09. Kelly's exact quote while in the forest with Ruby was: "Incredible. We didn't even make it to the cabin before Ash's brilliant plan freaked the toaster."
 
Indeed,it is difficult to answer those questions...most of them are probably plot holes being honest...but the whole "growing hand thing" maybe has an actual meaning, being an implicit explanation that no matter what you try to change in the past, that some facts will happen whatsoever.

On the other hand (no pun intented :) ) there is something i have been wondering about the post credits scene (someone taking the book from the ground)...is there any chance this hand belongs to young cheryl/linda? (It seemed like a lady hand and voice to me). 

That being said,what about this: what if the events on last episode indeed had influence in current timeline, but not the ones seen on the epilogue? Maybe they got trapped in a time loop arrange by ruby but things in the current present time line are much worse...? Maybe ash is the evil guy now, ruling over evil forces...maybe cheryl is alive and battles against him now...endless possibilities here, don't you think?

MaidOfKandar said:
Most of those are plot holes but:

2: it's definitely supposed to be a moment of panic/cowardice on his part that makes him leave them both there, he's trying to save himself.

3: You can see 80s Ruby for a second in his rear view mirror, so it was her.

4: In season 1 it was a protective talisman that prevented the Deadites from entering our realm.  They forgot that this season.

7: She's supposed to be one of the ancient old ones, and was apparently never a Knowby.

13: That is one of the biggest dropped balls. It looked like they were setting Ruby up as the lawful evil who had been saving the world from Ash for years but they dumped the plotline.

17: Dagger was last seen taped to Ash's gun in episode one of this season.

@irusisiul , I'm pretty sure it's not Linda - the voice was a tad bit too valley girl to me!

17.  Last I remember it, '82 Ruby summoned it and the book to herself before Kelly in S02 E10, while Baal and Ash were duking it out.
 
Ahh, I didn't remember that one!
 
MaidOfKandar said:
Ahh, I didn't remember that one!

I rewatched it.  The last times we see it is near the end, where the book gets pulled from '82 Ruby's hands and to the ground, and the cabin gets engulfed in hellfire.  She still has the dagger during that.  I think when they showed her again before the cabin fully collapsed, she still had the dagger.  Can only assume she still had it in the present when she was the new present-Ruby.  

Also, I really want to understand Kelly's "toaster" comment.  I quote from her, [size=small]"Incredible. We didn't even make it to the cabin before Ash's brilliant plan freaked the toaster."  I don't remember any freaky toaster moment.  Is this a metaphor for something that happened previously?  Please tell me.  [/size]
 
Hmmm...
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjz25dinl_U[/video]
 
I pretty much think the 'it was all an illusion' idea is all they can do at this point. Tapert's painted them into a narrative corner after pushing the panic button to wash out CDG's contributions to the season 2 landscape.
 
Sorry if now I "resurrect" this old thread. Just giving my two cents.

This is a wonderful, marvellous, absolutely fantastic episode and EVIL DEAD at its very best.

There are no plot-holes:

1- The dialogue about Ash and 1982 Ruby is indeed brilliant. He just told her that her Abominos (the evil spawn/demon babies) will make her "kill" Baal (S2. Episode 8). That's true. In turn, Ruby 1982 GUESSES that 2016/Mortal Ruby killed her demon babies along the way, which is also true. 1982 Ruby is not human. She is immortal, she lived for millennia, she owns a very sharp deductive ability. The dialogue is perfect.

(note: 2016 Ruby's hair turned to pink after the Abominos vomited on her face and hair...)

2- Ash's regrown hand was not an illusion, but the clear result of some weird "quantic resonance" bouncing back to 2016 Ash, despite they did NOT travelled to the past of their timeline (the "primary" timeline) but the past of an alternate timeline, atom-by-atom identical to the primary timeline.

3- Cheryl and Brock were mere illusions concocted by Baal, as well as the arm chainsaw in the bathroom (which was the real chainsaw from AvED). Baal made Ash found the arm chainsaw in the bathroom just to give him some mild advantage in the fight, since Ash was challenging him all the time and addressing him as a coward ("You played me like a cheap fiddle" and so on - Ash was playing on the fact that Baal CHEATED because he retained his demon powers in the fist fight).

4- 1982 Ruby "altered" the deal. She made it "honoured". How? Easy. Baal was CHEATING. He retained his demon powers in the fight. So 1982 Ruby found a way to alter the "deal" and turn Baal at least into a somewhat "mortal" being, and that's how Ash managed to kill him at the very end of the fight.

I must say that Ash's dialogues on this episode were absolutely brilliant. "Flimflamming S.O.B." was abolute gold... or even the quote "You played me like a cheap fiddle". Classic Ash!
 
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