Ash vs Evil Dead S02 E10: Second Coming Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Nick el Ass]

I can't help, but look at Craig as the type of guy who is so bitter about being fired that he decided to jump at the first opportunity to talk shit about his employer so he can spoil everything, and there is no way in hell they could still use any of it. Maybe we will even get a Youtube video from him with more dirt. Now the colon fight to me isn't very Evil Dead like, or memerable... and Pablo coming back only to become jealous of Kelly would have been doubly bad in my opinion.

 

[Nick el Ass]

Whelp.  Please enjoy this highly revealing interview with Craig DiGregorio about why the finale was a disaster and why they fired him.

Craig seems like the type of guy who would decide to jump at the first opportunity to talk shit about his employer, and make sure there is no way they could still use any of it. Maybe we will even get a Youtube video from him with more dirt, haha. Now the colon fight not only isn't very Evil Dead like, but it isn't very memorable... and Pablo coming back only to become jealous of Kelly would have been doubly bad in my opinion. So maybe it was a good thing.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

IMO, it was a dick move of Rob to re-write everything (IF CDG isn't lying) but his idea RE Kelly was awful. I love the character of Kelly most of the time and in her current form I'd hesitate to call her a mary sue, but making her Ash's magical time baby and explaining away her being a badassery by making them biologically related would've made her one. It sounds like CDG is bitter his favorite character didn't get to take another level in badass and rise to become Ash's heir, and since CDG seems to be the source of the LOL DON'T TAKE EVIL DEAD SO SERIOUSLY meme, I won't miss him on the show.

If he's right though, we can squarely blame the finale's crapitude on RT.

 

[Guy]

@Guy - IMO there's a huge difference between doing wacky plot developments and having a universe filled with silly slapstick and putting writing that's so sloppy that half your audience has no idea what the hell is happening and why onscreen.   It's something you can get away with in a two hour movie and something you can't in a five hour series.   There's only so far the 'it's Evil Dead, light a blunt and laugh at the pretty colors' mantra goes when they expect you to actually care about the characters.

The whole Ruby twist would be another case of Deus Ex Machina that's worse than reversing the Pablo thing.  How many times are they going to have Ruby use the book to bend reality? It should be the evil itself doing that, but Ruby has become a cipher who solely exists to Do Things With The Book, which she somehow can't control even though she wrote half of it.

ETA: they could say that the Baal/Ash cabin battle happened in some timeless stasis, but they didn't directly state it.  So we can presume everything happened in 82 and Ash used Pablo's tattoos to get back to the present.

Not entirely though. All of Army of Darkness is "silly slapstick". Like, the entire film.

And as for sloppy writing, Evil Dead 2 is full of it. The daytime cures deadite Ash is a new revelation (one that's dropped when Ash fights deadites in AoD). The daytime quickly becomes the night-time again for no reason other than "evil". Ash dreams Linda rising from the grave, but she doesn't, he wakes in his chair, then her head falls from the ceiling (how did it get there?). Ash cuts his hand off and it has zero lasting painful effect on him as a human being. How did Knowby die? How come he can come back as a ghost but others can't? Why can Henrietta fly? Why can she turn her head into a demon-snake and others can't? Love cures deadite Ash also now?

There was always a madcap zany "making this up as we go" energy to Evil Dead. Always.

 

[Nick el Ass]

I think Craig was in over his head at times, and was likely on his way out no matter what happened. So there is a good chance they would have taken his bad ideas out regardless. The funny thing about this episode (if true) for Rob Tapert is that when Xena came to an end he was the one who directed the last two episodes A Friend in Need I, II so he should be used to getting shit from people because fans of Xena were pissed... and I'd be curious to see how fans would react to seeing Ruby getting beheaded Ruby. I also wouldn't be shocked if Craig's recollection isn't exactly 100% truthful when it comes to who came up with what when planning out AvED season 2.

 

[Guy]

For me this all needs a bit of a retconning to make any 'continuity' sense. Ruby outright stated she used the book to "alter the deal". If the alteration is that Ash still gets his winning condition (Pablo returns, Ruby and Baal leave) but the Ghostbeaters now get dragged to hell with them, then that fixes a lot of things.

The 'happy ending' can be a false paradise, meaning the force ghosts aren't 'really' there (making them slightly less lame, if they're just Ash's paradise pop culture fed imagination), the Cabin can still physically exist on Earth which leaves the ED films in continuity (for the most part, Henrietta's still dead though) and Ash's re-appeared hand can be explained not as a time-travel re-grow, but as a gift from Ruby/Ball so they can cut it off (which they did) to make a new Evil Ash who serves as the big bad for the season.

It would take a bit of hefty dialogue from Ruby to deliver it, telling Ash everything after defeating Baal is exactly what Ash wanted it to be, she could question him on how he ever got back to his own time considering nobody can read Sumerian, for the team to all just stand there going "Uh....?" and the penny dropping. But then that essentially gives us a Season 3 which is Ash in Hell (which would be fucking great, visually and as a new concept) whilst Evil Ash (Ashy Slashy?) is wrecking havoc on Earth making everyone hate him again.

The Evil Ash thing might be a bit of a stretch, but I would give my left nut to see Ash vs Hell.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

@Guy - IMO there's a huge difference between doing wacky plot developments and having a universe filled with silly slapstick and putting writing that's so sloppy that half your audience has no idea what the hell is happening and why onscreen.   It's something you can get away with in a two hour movie and something you can't in a five hour series.   There's only so far the 'it's Evil Dead, light a blunt and laugh at the pretty colors' mantra goes when they expect you to actually care about the characters.

The whole Ruby twist would be another case of Deus Ex Machina that's worse than reversing the Pablo thing.  How many times are they going to have Ruby use the book to bend reality? It should be the evil itself doing that, but Ruby has become a cipher who solely exists to Do Things With The Book, which she somehow can't control even though she wrote half of it.

ETA: they could say that the Baal/Ash cabin battle happened in some timeless stasis, but they didn't directly state it.  So we can presume everything happened in 82 and Ash used Pablo's tattoos to get back to the present.

Not entirely though. All of Army of Darkness is "silly slapstick". Like, the entire film.

And as for sloppy writing, Evil Dead 2 is full of it. The daytime cures deadite Ash is a new revelation (one that's dropped when Ash fights deadites in AoD). The daytime quickly becomes the night-time again for no reason other than "evil". Ash dreams Linda rising from the grave, but she doesn't, he wakes in his chair, then her head falls from the ceiling (how did it get there?). Ash cuts his hand off and it has zero lasting painful effect on him as a human being. How did Knowby die? How come he can come back as a ghost but others can't? Why can Henrietta fly? Why can she turn her head into a demon-snake and others can't? Love cures deadite Ash also now?

There was always a madcap zany "making this up as we go" energy to Evil Dead. Always.

True (and AOD is actually my favorite of the trilogy), but most of the examples you sited can at least be explained via internal logic that's displayed onscreen (the demons have been seen to speed time forward since the Evil Dead, for one example, and it's pretty clear that the Deadites are playing mind games with Ash which is why Linda's head is there, etc., Knowby is the only character who has a full mastery of the book in movie canon except for the Wiseman so it's possible he'd know how to do it, etc.).  It's supposed to establish a hallucinatory atmosphere that AvED has failed at for me.

I think Craig was in over his head at times, and was likely on his way out no matter what happened. So there is a good chance they would have taken his bad ideas out regardless. The funny thing about this episode (if true) for Rob Tapert is that when Xena came to an end he was the one who directed the last two episodes A Friend in Need I, II so he should be used to getting shit from people because fans of Xena were pissed... and I'd be curious to see how fans would react to seeing Ruby getting beheaded Ruby. I also wouldn't be shocked if Craig's recollection isn't exactly 100% truthful when it comes to who came up with what when planning out AvED season 2.

Yeah, I think after what happened on Xena he's got a thick enough skin.  People are apparently having a go at him on Twitter over this too.

It sounds like Craig kept pitching stuff to Bruce and Bruce would love it but Rob, being the one in charge of keeping story order together, would turn him down.

For me this all needs a bit of a retconning to make any 'continuity' sense. Ruby outright stated she used the book to "alter the deal". If the alteration is that Ash still gets his winning condition (Pablo returns, Ruby and Baal leave) but the Ghostbeaters now get dragged to hell with them, then that fixes a lot of things.

The 'happy ending' can be a false paradise, meaning the force ghosts aren't 'really' there (making them slightly less lame, if they're just Ash's paradise pop culture fed imagination), the Cabin can still physically exist on Earth which leaves the ED films in continuity (for the most part, Henrietta's still dead though) and Ash's re-appeared hand can be explained not as a time-travel re-grow, but as a gift from Ruby/Ball so they can cut it off (which they did) to make a new Evil Ash who serves as the big bad for the season.

It would take a bit of hefty dialogue from Ruby to deliver it, telling Ash everything after defeating Baal is exactly what Ash wanted it to be, she could question him on how he ever got back to his own time considering nobody can read Sumerian, for the team to all just stand there going "Uh....?" and the penny dropping. But then that essentially gives us a Season 3 which is Ash in Hell (which would be fucking great, visually and as a new concept) whilst Evil Ash (Ashy Slashy?) is wrecking havoc on Earth making everyone hate him again.

The Evil Ash thing might be a bit of a stretch, but I would give my left nut to see Ash vs Hell.

That's pretty much what they're going to have to do.  And it's going to be a rehash of the asylum episode when it happens.

 

[Joem1k]

Honestly I'm glad of the changes RT did to ash and kelly's relationship, it was organic and felt right IMHO, it was way better done then what fucking Craig had in mind overall.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

Yeah, I'm pretty glad we didn't. I love Kelly and I like seeing her take control of herself but the last thing I wanted was Kelly Williams: Super Warrior who's So Much Better Than Pablo Because She's The Product of Ash Doing a Girl in a Public Restroom Yes Again.

 

[Joem1k]

Yeah, I'm pretty glad we didn't.  I love Kelly and I like seeing her take control of herself but the last thing I wanted was Kelly Williams: Super Warrior who's So Much Better Than Pablo Because She's The Product of Ash Doing a Girl in a Public Restroom Yes Again.

Exactly this, sure what rob did may come off as being a dick to craig he seemed to have a pretty good reasoning behind it and well rob was justified in his actions i won't agree with what he did with the finale as a whole but he seemed to have the characters in mind when he did it.

 

[Ashenwraith]

Rob Tapert is a fucking trollock hero.

He probably has a head-sized crater in his office from the last two years.

I know I have one in my TV room.

 

[Joem1k]

Rob Tapert is a fucking trollock hero.

He probably has a head-sized crater in his office from the last two years.

[img=300x130]http://i.imgur.com/LBM55wY.gif[/img]

This post made my night sir, thank you for that haha.

(Note, i am in full agreement with you btw, i just found it hilarious you called rob a damn trollock hero )

 

[E Tu Cheryl?]

I'd say we got a good sampling of Ted, and I'm sure he will be back on some way for season 3. I was just ill prepared for the Star Warsesque reappearance of Brock, Cheryl, and Chet at the end... but had no doubt Ruby even if it is the 80's version would fall back on her evil ways at some point. Also dueling chainsaws will always top dueling banjos. 


/Glad to see Pablo is back too.
//I'll have more to say at some point.

There's never enough Ted Raimi in Evil Dead, he's the unsung hero of this franchise, it'd be great if a running joke were developed throughout S3 where they stick him in as many roles as possible. Have Hippie Ted Raimi pull Hot Dog Vendor Ted Raimi out of the path of a falling deadite, stuff like that would be hysterical cause honestly, for me, it's not like plot or continuity are the strong suits here, so I say play up the slapstick humor and in jokes tenfold!

 

[Muzzlehatch]

Good God, that was bad ...

Was there any reason for Baal & Ruby not kill Ash & Kelly imediatly? I read somewhere that it was important for Bruce to get Ash in a fair, mortal battle without any super powers. If that's the quality he, Rob and the rest of the gang will keep up after firing Craig I honestly don't want to see it. I mean ... making Kelly Ash's daughter like Craig wanted? Not ideal, but way better than this lousy crap (even if the happy ending should be revelead as another evil trick).
 
Beside that I found the episode also quite unimaginative. No remarkable effects, camera work, music or anything.

 

[eViL DeAdiTe]

Wow, what a garbage ending.

I understand wanting to scrap the Kelly is Ash's daughter plot point, but what in hell was the point of rehashing the cabin, and going to 1982, if you're not going to follow through and lead up to, or interact with, the events of the beginning of TED/ED2?

I absolutely loved the idea of having older Ash actually be there and maybe inadvertently be responsible for helping younger Ash behind the scenes without younger Ash knowing. That could've been sooo much fun, but they wasted the opportunity for craptacular a rehash of the S1 finale. I mean, it was so awful it was actually kind of insulting.

Also, why is Ash a hero when he returns to Elk Grove present day? If he changed history, then there's nothing for anyone to celebrate, right? Why are Chet, Cheryl, and Brock still dead? 

I don't understand...

 

[Kevin]

For the most part I have enjoyed the show despite some of it's writing shortcomings and overuse of perverse slapstick humor but that ending was pretty bad. They do this entire time traveling arc with ZERO payout.

We the audience are left to assume that Ash and gang went back in time, completely rewriting history and destroying the cabin and nothing in the present timeline has changed at all except for Pablo being alive? I really hope there is more to it then that. Maybe an explanation in season three.

Episode was rather tame with no real setup for season three at all. What a lazy written episode. Wasn't a huge fan of Craig's work all the time but I feel like his ending sounded like it at least had less time traveling plotholes and a setup for season three.

I'm really hoping the new showrunner and take this show into an entirely new direction moving forward and improve the lazy writing. At times there are hints of brilliance but bad writing continues to strike.

Does anyone here have any possible explanations for the timeline plotholes? At this point I will take even a shaky explanation...

 

[Guywiththegun40]

So it seems like that interview with Craig is supposed to read like "the big bad producer ruining the vision of the good showrunner" but honestly it comes across to me like Craig was the reason this show was soooo . . Hangover 2-ish vs Evil Dead-ish. That mentality that we can't take it seriously because "This is a show about a guy with a chainsaw arm". That just seems like he doesn't get it at all. Yes, Evil Dead has its crazy funny moments and always has thick sense of humor . . but Evil Dead works because that's contrasted with actual horror that's pretty fukcing cool and unsettling. And the characters aren't ALWAYS goofing around and or making ironic comments even when faced with horrible evil. Even in AOD. They never got that horror element right on this show. They came close a few times . . but it never matched what we saw in Evil Dead or Evil Dead 2.

I'm kind of excited we get some fresh blood to give us a season of Evil Dead. Rob saying "this isn't Evil Dead" is pretty much exactly how  I felt through a lot of this show.The finale was crap, yes, and didn't make sense . . but Craig's version doesn't sound any better.

Plus the new showrunner being involved in Daredevil has me excited too. DD is amazing. I'm pumped for Season 3. Hopefully they can write themselves out of this mess.

 

[Muzzlehatch]

So it seems like that interview with Craig is supposed to read like "the big bad producer ruining the vision of the good showrunner" but honestly it comes across to me like Craig was the reason this show was soooo . . Hangover 2-ish vs Evil Dead-ish. That mentality that we can't take it seriously because "This is a show about a guy with a chainsaw arm". That just seems like he doesn't get it at all. Yes, Evil Dead has its crazy funny moments and always has thick sense of humor . . but Evil Dead works because that's contrasted with actual horror that's pretty fukcing cool and unsettling. And the characters aren't ALWAYS goofing around and or making ironic comments even when faced with horrible evil. Even in AOD. They never got that horror element right on this show. They came close a few times . . but it never matched what we saw in Evil Dead or Evil Dead 2.

I'm kind of excited we get some fresh blood to give us a season of Evil Dead. Rob saying "this isn't Evil Dead" is pretty much exactly how  I felt through a lot of this show.The finale was crap, yes, and didn't make sense . . but Craig's version doesn't sound any better.

Plus the new showrunner being involved in Daredevil has me excited too. DD is amazing. I'm pumped for Season 3. Hopefully they can write themselves out of this mess.

I agree with nearly everything. But I am sceptical concerning Mark Verheiden taking over. DareDevil is indeed awsome. In my opinion it even represents everything AvED could have achieved: finding serious drama in a silly premise / genre. On the other hand he wrote medicore or even awful stuff like My Name is Bruce and that stinker of a movie seems to me like a spiritual predecesdor to nearly everything that annoys me about AvED.

 

[Sutter Cane]

Sorry but I don't think a showrunner could bring something new or change something if the producers say "NO" at the end.  Because if the vision of the producers is crap it will end as it is.  This season clearly prove it.

Maybe I don't agree with 100% of ideas, but Craig's visions was at least 90% better than what we got.  It was also more coherent.  I doubt about him a lot in season 1 but the final he wrote was very good.  

Ash being Kelly's father is maybe not the best idea but at least it bring something new on the table of characters development.  It's way better than a big nothing at all.  I think Evil Dead is supposed to be disturbing at some point.  It was in the 80' I don't know why it should be different.  With today's standards, you need to bring this to a new level.  This idea just remind me Predestination with Ethan Hawks.  This movie is really disturbing and it deal with time travel and butterfly effects.  

The first half of the season which Craig seem to be a lot involved was amazing.  Most of the second half was just wrong.  

So we got an end which the characters changes history but changes nothing at all.  So it was just a big reset button to bring back Ruby as the villain.

 

[DyD]

I don't understand...

Nobody does. Because none of it makes any sense. But hey, this is Evil Dead! It's bad on purpose! C'mon, it's about a guy with a chainsaw arm! It's supposed to be poorly written, inconsistent and incoherent! You're just supposed to light up a joint and laugh at it like an idiot! Right? So... Haha, I guess?

Craig's original idea for the finale? Just as bad, but in a different direction. I'm also not one bit interested in what his plans for season 3 were and what his overall "vision" for the show seemed to be. I'm actually glad someone put a stop to all of that nonsense, even if meant breaking the season finale completely. A lot of the problems with the show were there since episode 1 of the first season and that interview did nothing but confirm that most of the things I've been having problems with are 100% his fault. I'm also glad that now I have someone specific to blame for the the whole "head up the butt" shenanigans. Craig was removed because he was an incompetent showrunner and his ideas weren't working. Simple as that. About the rest of the interview, geez, what a way to commit career suicide... Before reading that I thought he meant well but just wasn't ready to run a show on his own, but now I think he's also kind of an unprofessional jerk and a big cry-baby.

So it seems like that interview with Craig is supposed to read like "the big bad producer ruining the vision of the good showrunner" but honestly it comes across to me like Craig was the reason this show was soooo . . Hangover 2-ish vs Evil Dead-ish. That mentality that we can't take it seriously because "This is a show about a guy with a chainsaw arm". That just seems like he doesn't get it at all. Yes, Evil Dead has its crazy funny moments and always has thick sense of humor . . but Evil Dead works because that's contrasted with actual horror that's pretty fukcing cool and unsettling. And the characters aren't ALWAYS goofing around and or making ironic comments even when faced with horrible evil. Even in AOD. They never got that horror element right on this show. They came close a few times . . but it never matched what we saw in Evil Dead or Evil Dead 2.

I'm kind of excited we get some fresh blood to give us a season of Evil Dead. Rob saying "this isn't Evil Dead" is pretty much exactly how  I felt through a lot of this show.The finale was crap, yes, and didn't make sense . . but Craig's version doesn't sound any better.

Plus the new showrunner being involved in Daredevil has me excited too. DD is amazing. I'm pumped for Season 3. Hopefully they can write themselves out of this mess.

I'm 100% with ya. That's exactly what I was thinking while reading the interview.