Ash vs Evil Dead S02 E10: Second Coming Discussion [SPOILERS]

[DyD]

Co-Written" doesn't mean Sam was in the writing room with them throughout the process. It just means he turned in the outline/first draft and let Craig and his writers do whatever they wanted from that point on. The leaked draft for the pilot written by him and Ivan was very different from the script they shot (and much better, in my opinion).

Okay, I thought the first episode was pretty much Sam and Ivan's baby, but that's interesting. I'd be interested to check out the unmodified version written by them.

Also, the problem is not with having sex scenes in the show. There's a sex scene in AoD.

I was thinking more of the sleazy nature of the sex scene rather than the fact one occurred, but if Sam and/or Ivan didn't write it, I guess that makes my point irrelevant.

I don't disagree with a lot of your points although I like both series overall.

I think we agree they could be better. This last episode definitely could have been better...

Oh, we most definitely agree on a lot of things. I think my post may have seemed a little more antagonistic than I originally intended, so I'm sorry for that. It's just that I'm still kinda grumpy about the show. I don't remember if the sex scene was in the original draft that Sam wrote (it could be). The biggest differences that I remember off the top of my head is that the book was still destroyed in it (Ash never read from it while high on pot) and that the stuff with Amanda was much better written and structured. The thing about the bathroom sex scene is that if that was the only moment of sleazy sex in the show, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. At least that moment was kinda character driven, even if still a little too over the top for my tastes, with Ash screaming "you like my wood?" and all. The problem is with that sleazy aspect of the writing rearing its ugly head over and over again throughout the episodes. To me it reached a point where I had to say "enough is enough".

 

[Mardeadite]

No problem, I didn't think you were having a go at me.

 

[Ashenwraith]

Ep10 has a lot of problems, but as a whole in reflection to this season it is easily within the top 4.

- Henrietta without voice FX
- Henrietta spitting out shotgun pellets
+ Tanya apparent death scene
+ Knowby death scene
++ Tanya being bloody and actually still alive
- Felt like a double blood explosion with both Knowby and the Tanya dying at nearly the same time
- Knowby dead way too soon
- Blond Ruby suddenly appearing for no apparent reason
+ Ted's Henrietta acting
+ Film reel starting up
- CGI Henrietta
++ Prosthetic/puppet Henrietta
++ Better Henrietta fight than ED 2
- Henrietta fight was too short
- "Wait...[] 80's Ruby..."
- "Choose a new life..."
- "Would it still be a threesome?"
- "What would I even do?"
+ Ash gets his hand back
- Are you saying ED 1-3 never happened now?
+ Ash drinking Beer
++ Pablo being Baal
+ Creepy kids
+Stormy atmosphere
-Baal infodumping
+ "I want to rip the skies open until they bleed"
- Pointless Deal (Ash should have had the dagger and gave it to Ruby as part of the deal)
+ Chet
- Ash already loses his hand
+ Cheryl
- Brock
- Brock isn't really Ash's dad
- randomly filled bath tub
- Brock's spirit becomes a chainsaw?
+ Chainsaw duel
- lol bloody/dying Kelly looks like she's trying to be seductive
+ Baal acting
- "What was she like in the sack?"
+ Baal death 2
- CGI fire
- Pablo being alive and still as the tattooed Necronomicon. Should have come back as undead if he came back at all
- time travel without explanation
+ Ash victory parade?
- Star Wars ghosts
- Ash speech
+ Linda/Ruby seem to hint this is not real

I rate S02 as:
01
05
03
10
06
07
09
08
04
02

This was much better than becoming Kelly's dad in a bathroom stall and just having Baal and Ruby still alive when they get back.

NO THANKS, CRAIG SHOULD HAVE GOT AXED S01!

 

[Muzzlehatch]

Co-Written" doesn't mean Sam was in the writing room with them throughout the process. It just means he turned in the outline/first draft and let Craig and his writers do whatever they wanted from that point on. The leaked draft for the pilot written by him and Ivan was very different from the script they shot (and much better, in my opinion).

Okay, I thought the first episode was pretty much Sam and Ivan's baby, but that's interesting. I'd be interested to check out the unmodified version written by them.

Also, the problem is not with having sex scenes in the show. There's a sex scene in AoD.

I was thinking more of the sleazy nature of the sex scene rather than the fact one occurred, but if Sam and/or Ivan didn't write it, I guess that makes my point irrelevant.

I don't disagree with a lot of your points although I like both series overall.

I think we agree they could be better. This last episode definitely could have been better...

Oh, we most definitely agree on a lot of things. I think my post may have seemed a little more antagonistic than I originally intended, so I'm sorry for that. It's just that I'm still kinda grumpy about the show. I don't remember if the sex scene was in the original draft that Sam wrote (it could be). The biggest differences that I remember off the top of my head is that the book was still destroyed in it (Ash never read from it while high on pot) and that the stuff with Amanda was much better written and structured. The thing about the bathroom sex scene is that if that was the only moment of sleazy sex in the show, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. At least that moment was kinda character driven, even if still a little too over the top for my tastes, with Ash screaming "you like my wood?" and all. The problem is with that sleazy aspect of the writing rearing its ugly head over and over again throughout the episodes. To me it reached a point where I had to say "enough is enough".

I did not know, there was a leaked script. How can I get my hands on it?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always understood that the first part of Evil Dead 2 retcons what happens in ED1 before continuing on past where ED1 stopped.

I thought that's what was being referenced in this last episode where he wasn't sure if he found the book on the table, or in the basement, because even he couldn't remember which version of the first two movies actually happened.

Sorry but I can't picture Evil Dead 1 Ash partying with Chet and doing hard drugs.

I think your first problem is trying to picture this as Evil Dead 1 Ash.  The Ash in this series is clearly based on the AoD version.

 

[MaidOfKandar]

Its just a different style of humor that isn't "Evil Dead". Craig did not get Evil Dead, and judging from a lot of what he's said . . it sounds like he doesn't really like it that much. I bit my tongue and really tried to just accept the crudeness and the constant sex jokes . . but really in none of the movies was that really a thing. I mean, Ash was kind of dorky when it came to that. "After all I'm a man and you're a woman . . " He was a goofy, reluctant hero who turned into a badass and sure, had his selfish moments, but would step up and genuinely cared about fighting evil and helping people, and certainly wouldn't interrupt all that to bang a waitress in the bathroom.

I don't mind that Ash, in his old age, got a little sleazy as long as it stays true to who he was in the older movies . . I mean people change, especially if you've had a lot of sht go down in your life and you just say "fuck it". And this is a new show, so I suppose there can be some room for new interpretations . . but it can't be so over to the top, to the point that he's making sleazy sex jokes while talking to his (presumed) long dead sister and cutting tension in every scene, and retconning the movies to make it seem like he's always been this way.

Sorry but I can't picture Evil Dead 1 Ash partying with Chet and doing hard drugs. It just doesn't fit. And its played for laughs because Craig has this "Fuck it, its only Evil Dead" attitude. He did good with a lot of the show but I'm glad we're getting someone new before he really went off the rails with Evil Dead reduced to a raunchy sex comedy spoof of what Evil Dead was.

 
I can totally picture it, Scotty was downing shine on the way up to the cabin in the first one, while driving Ash's car, Ash didn't really seem to mind nor did Linda, Shelly or Cheryl, they were singing, joking around and having a blast!

Actually, we see that Ash is a total lightweight during that scene.  He chokes on the stuff. 

I don't disagree, mind you, concerning the over the top sleaziness of the character. It should be toned down. I'm not sure the showrunner who left is totally to blame though. It was there from the start of the series.

I still blame Bruce for at least eighty percent of the character choices they made with Ash in this.

Interestingly, the only episode where we actually saw a sex scene was the pilot.... directed and co written by Sam Raimi himself...

I don't disagree, mind you, concerning the over the top sleaziness of the character. It should be toned down. I'm not sure the showrunner who left is totally to blame though. It was there from the start of the series.

I look forward to see what the new guy will do, though.

I could imagine young Ash smoking joints, sure. Ketamine and angel dust though? Probably not. But then we know so little about the character.

"Co-Written" doesn't mean Sam was in the writing room with them throughout the process. It just means he turned in the outline/first draft and let Craig and his writers do whatever they wanted from that point on. The leaked draft for the pilot written by him and Ivan was very different from the script they shot (and much better, in my opinion). I'm pretty sure Sam had very little creative input on the show beyond directing the pilot. He isn't as involved as a lot of people seem to think he is. Also, the problem is not with having sex scenes in the show. There's a sex scene in AoD. There's sexual innuendo and insinuated sex throughout the ED trilogy. The problem is with tone. The problem is when that affects the character portrayal. The problem is with the overabundance of sleazy humor and with turning every character into a sleazy pervert and every deadite into a sex fiend. I'm trying to think of a single deadite this season that didn't attempt anything sexual with their victims and I'm coming up short. And that's all on DiGregorio and his writers.

About Ash's portrayal, the problem is trying to retcon the character into being something that he never was. This season clearly stated that he was always a womanizing party animal, an asshole and a bully even before he went to the cabin. And that CLEARLY clashes with his portrayal in the first two movies, where he was kind of a dork and the "mellow nice guy" compared to Scotty, who was actually an asshole. The background they tried to give Ash on the show is more in line with Scotty than it is with original Ash. That undermines the "zero to hero" character arc he had in the movies and the biggest aspect of the character's development so far.

All of the highlighted parts (I will say that there are definitely sexualized Deadite behaviors in the franchise, though, going all the way back to Linda humping Ash in TED.

Also the show's forgotten the fact that the original trilogy's romantic arcs were the most seriously portrayed and acted parts of every movie.  See: Ash's relationship with Linda.  Even Ash's relationship with Sheila is the only serious part of AOD.

Ok so if the mythology of the first two movies is so sacred then why would he go back to a cabin with his girlfriend where his previous girlfriend and all his friends got possessed and killed? Didn't Ash also get killed at the end of the first one? I guess what I'm asking is, does sunlight kill deadites or not?

Are you seriously asking this stuff? Also, I fail to see what any of that has anything to do with what I just posted, but ok, here we go (again)... Ash never returned to the cabin with a new girlfriend. He never even left. The first movie shows the first night Ash spent at the cabin, when all his friends and girlfriend got killed. Evil Dead 2 shows the second night he spent at the cabin, when Annie and the others arrive and Henrietta is discovered buried in the cellar. That's why there's no book in ED2, only the lost pages Annie brought to the cabin with her. The book was burned in the first movie. The first 5 minutes or so of Evil Dead 2 are just a streamlined recap of the first movie, with his friends and some other details omitted. They had to do this because they couldn't use any footage from the first movie due to rights issues and tried to do it in a way that wouldn't confuse people who hadn't seen the first movie. For the people who had seen the first movie, the point of transition from one chapter to the other is the force shot that runs through the cabin and throws Ash through the woods. They remade the shot exactly as it was in the first movie to clue you in. It's pretty damn obvious if you're paying attention to it. So that also answers your question about Ash dying at the end of the first movie. He didn't. He was thrown through the woods, knocked his head on a tree, started to get possessed, the evil force was driven away by the sunlight and he passed out. He woke up at dusk. Then the second part of the story begins. Of course this approach generated some small inconsistencies, but none of them affect the overall story or the character arc. It's just small, superficial and inconsequential details that are inconsistent. The story still flows nearly perfectly from one movie to the other and there aren't hardly any inconsistencies within each separate movie. I mean, c'mon, did you really think Ash had returned to the cabin wearing the same clothes, with a different girlfriend who's also named Linda, gave her the exact same necklace he had given the previous one, played the tape recorder again, then killed his new girlfriend and buried her in the exact same way he had done with the previous one? Is it really that difficult to connect the dots and figure out that the first few minutes of ED2 are just a condensed remake of the first movie?

About the sunlight killing deadites, it doesn't. But it weakens the evil force's power. That's why the force sometimes seems to manipulate time to make night fall faster and last longer. It happens both in ED2 and AoD, and that's something that the writers in AvED have completely forgotten about during the first season. In the first movie, it wasn't the sunlight that killed the deadites, it was the burning of the book. Once the book was burned, the sun started to rise.

To sum things up, my ultimate point is that just because there are minor inconsistencies in movies that were made years apart from each other it doesn't mean that the inconsistencies in the show are excusable, that the inconsistencies in the movies are there on purpose or that having inconsistencies in the story is an actual part of the Evil Dead style. It annoys me to no end that I have to keep making this point over and over again.

What DYD says is right about how the force seems to work in Daylight and how the movies tie together - he's directly quoting Word of God (AKA Sam and Bruce) as to how everything's supposed to fit together.

It seems as if the Evil can menace in the daylight (see: it chasing Ash in AOD) but it can't actually attack as far as we know.

 

[DyD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always understood that the first part of Evil Dead 2 retcons what happens in ED1 before continuing on past where ED1 stopped.

I thought that's what was being referenced in this last episode where he wasn't sure if he found the book on the table, or in the basement, because even he couldn't remember which version of the first two movies actually happened.

Sorry but I can't picture Evil Dead 1 Ash partying with Chet and doing hard drugs.

I think your first problem is trying to picture this as Evil Dead 1 Ash.  The Ash in this series is clearly based on the AoD version.

The show constantly references stuff from both the first and the second movie, even going as far as using footage from both as flashbacks. So I assume that means both movies happened in the show's timeline. Even if the character in the show is based more on AoD Ash (I'd still argue that he really isn't... He's more like fictional Bruce from My Name Is Bruce than any interpretation of Ash we've seen so far), the problem remains that the backstory they've given him on the show doesn't match the character from the first two movies and they made it pretty clear that they are canon.

 

[Muzzlehatch]

After the finale I wonder how the show still got such a positive reception. 

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/12/15/tv-review-ash-vs-evil-dead-210

I just don't geht it. As a fan of the franchise I would love to like the show as well. But I just can't do it.

 

[DyD]

I did not know, there was a leaked script. How can I get my hands on it?

It was shared in the forums sometime during the first season, either in the general discussion or one of the episode threads. I don't have the link or the file anymore and I don't know if it's still available, so sorry about that. Try looking around for posts around that time.

 

[Muzzlehatch]

I did not know, there was a leaked script. How can I get my hands on it?

It was shared in the forums sometime during the first season, either in the general discussion or one of the episode threads. I don't have the link or the file anymore and I don't know if it's still available, so sorry about that. Try looking around for posts around that time.

I already found it, but thanks

And I agree. While I liked the pilot the original script reads even better.

 

[DyD]

After the finale I wonder how the show still got such a positive reception. 

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/12/15/tv-review-ash-vs-evil-dead-210

I just don't geht it. As a fan of the franchise I would love to like the show as well. But I just can't do it.

Some people are genuinely entertained by it and having fun. Sometimes that's enough. Some people have a higher threshold for how much they can ignore the problems. Some people think the good outweighs the bad. Some people are looking at it with hype/fandom goggles. Some people are amazed by the crazy outrageous aspects and how far the show is willing to take some scenes and choosing to ignore everything else. Some people just want to get high and laugh at it. Some people truly think that is what Evil Dead is all about. Some reviewers might be getting paid or receiving gifts/favors to praise it (hey, it happens with almost every entertainment product out there). Some people simply don't have standards (a LOT of people, actually). Some of these reasons are more valid than others, but in the end, most of them are just as valid as our reasons to dislike it. So my advice would be to not get too flustered about it. Just the sudden influx of new people who showed here to criticize the show after the finale aired is enough to prove to us that we're not the only ones seeing the problems and that the fanbase is truly divided on it.

 

[Muzzlehatch]

After the finale I wonder how the show still got such a positive reception. 

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/12/15/tv-review-ash-vs-evil-dead-210

I just don't geht it. As a fan of the franchise I would love to like the show as well. But I just can't do it.

Some people are genuinely entertained by it and having fun. Sometimes that's enough. Some people have a higher threshold for how much they can ignore the problems. Some people think the good outweighs the bad. Some people are looking at it with hype/fandom goggles. Some people are amazed by the crazy outrageous aspects and how far the show is willing to take some scenes and choosing to ignore everything else. Some people just want to get high and laugh at it. Some people truly think that is what Evil Dead is all about. Some reviewers might be getting paid or receiving gifts/favors to praise it (hey, it happens with almost every entertainment product out there). Some people simply don't have standards (a LOT of people, actually). Some of these reasons are more valid than others, but in the end, most of them are just as valid as our reasons to dislike it. So my advice would be to not get too flustered about it. Just the sudden influx of new people who showed here to criticize the show after the finale aired is enough to prove to us that we're not the only ones seeing the problems and that the fanbase is truly divided on it.

Of course you are right regarding the regular audience. But I specially mean the more or less reviewers. Normaly the jump on lousy writing. Or that is was I expected.

 

[DyD]

Don't forget that a lot of reviewers are actually a part of the regular audience and subject to the aforementioned points of view. Also don't forget that a lot of the glowing reviews from professional critics are based only on the first couple of episodes from each season. Take a look at the 100% score the second season has on Rotten Tomatoes, for instance. Take a look at the dates on the actual reviews. Nearly all of them are for the premiere episode alone. What they're really reviewing is the potential the season had to be amazing rather than if it delivered on that promise or not.

 

[Mardeadite]

I read a review of the last episode a short while ago by a young lady who introduced her review with:

"Read it for a better understanding of horror, comedy, and Bruce Campbell"

I only read her review of episode 10 to be fair, but, it basically boiled down to "this is great!" with very little analysis at all!

Now I'm one of those who really liked both series, and I was entertained by episode 10. But I can't honestly say I thought the episode was particularly good.* Okay fine, this is all a matter of opinion, and being entertained is enough for many to quantity something as good. If she is one of those people, fine. But her review did not fulfil the promise of her tweet. Maybe her reviews of other episodes did.

*If I sound like I'm contradicting myself, what I mean is, I wasn't bored. I enjoyed the ride. But ultimately it was unsatisfying and the plot just didn't hold up.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The show constantly references stuff from both the first and the second movie, even going as far as using footage from both as flashbacks. So I assume that means both movies happened in the show's timeline

Fair enough.

After the finale I wonder how the show still got such a positive reception. 

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/12/15/tv-review-ash-vs-evil-dead-210

I just don't geht it. As a fan of the franchise I would love to like the show as well. But I just can't do it.

Because 8 good episodes and 2 bad ones still = good season?

 

[ChemaVillalba]

Some people are genuinely entertained by it and having fun. Sometimes that's enough. Some people have a higher threshold for how much they can ignore the problems. Some people think the good outweighs the bad. Some people are looking at it with hype/fandom goggles. Some people are amazed by the crazy outrageous aspects and how far the show is willing to take some scenes and choosing to ignore everything else. Some people just want to get high and laugh at it. Some people truly think that is what Evil Dead is all about. Some reviewers might be getting paid or receiving gifts/favors to praise it (hey, it happens with almost every entertainment product out there). Some people simply don't have standards (a LOT of people, actually). Some of these reasons are more valid than others, but in the end, most of them are just as valid as our reasons to dislike it. So my advice would be to not get too flustered about it. Just the sudden influx of new people who showed here to criticize the show after the finale aired is enough to prove to us that we're not the only ones seeing the problems and that the fanbase is truly divided on it.

Excellent word by word, sir!

 

[DyD]

Because 8 good episodes and 2 bad ones still = good season?

More like 2 decent episodes, 7 heavily flawed ones and an unforgivably bad finale, but yeah... I get what you're saying.

Excellent word by word, sir!

 

[Ashenwraith]

More like 2 decent episodes, 7 heavily flawed ones and an unforgivably bad finale, but yeah... I get what you're saying.

Finale is not that bad in Seasonal context man.

There are very, very strong hints that the happy ending part is an illusion/dream.

Also not too much a stretch to believe Baal summoned Brock's spirit to screw with Ash by the way it's shot.

If you start Ep 9 from the point where they arrive in the woods and watch to Ep10, it's pretty satisfying.

What they do in S03 is what matters, but Ep 10 is pretty good Baal wrap up and brings back the cool creepy kids/eliminates boring Ruby.

 

[DyD]

Finale is not that bad in Seasonal context man.

There are very, very strong hints that the happy ending part is an illusion/dream.

Also not too much a stretch to believe Baal summoned Brock's spirit to screw with Ash by the way it's shot.

If you start Ep 9 from the point where they arrive in the woods and watch to Ep10, it's pretty satisfying.

What they do in S03 is what matters, but Ep 10 is pretty good Baal wrap up and brings back the cool creepy kids/eliminates boring Ruby.

The happy ending is the least of the finale's problems. If it turns out it was all an illusion, that still doesn't cover most of the illogical developments and plot holes in it. To me, the finale is a showcase of everything that was wrong with the season turned up to 11. Personally, I don't think there was anything good or satisfying about it at all. Nothing in it worked for me. By the way, you were probably the forum member that was the most critical of the show in general and even people who love the show are saying the finale was bad and unsatisfying. I don't mean this in an insulting manner or anything, but to see you of all people defending it is really weird.

 

[duke henry]

[quote pid='8718' dateline='1481439109']
"And that hook for next season: let me guess: yet another young person grabs the book and messes around with it, screwing everything up and young Ruby manipulates them?"

Me: Exactly!  this is exactly what I meant when I said it would have been nice to see a big pink bow on the end of season 2, everything solved, fixed, and no need to simply become repetitive by forcing a 3rd season.  They should have just given it a good, satisfying, clean ending that made sense rather than drive it into the ground and ruin it just to make a few bucks on one more season.
[/quote]