Ash vs Evil Dead S03E02: Booth Three Discussion [SPOILERS]

Henrietta Knowby

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was anybody else weirded out that ash put a whole porn section in his hardware store? granted, he's not exactly pc, but that felt out of character even for him. thoughts?
 

DyD

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was anybody else weirded out that ash put a whole porn section in his hardware store? granted, he's not exactly pc, but that felt out of character even for him. thoughts?

It doesn't feel the slightest bit out of character for this pervy "Ash" character they've made the protagonist of the show so far. But for movie Ash? Yes, very out of character and I wish they'd stop focusing on those character traits already.
 

MaidOfKandar

I May Be Bad But I Feel...Good....
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Yeah, it's sadly completely in character for this version of Ash. It doesn't make a whole lot of real sense since Hardware stores are all ages establishments which was why we were all worrying in the season premiere if they were gonna dumb him down to Homer Simpson levels.
 
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The Knowby Warrior

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Fact is:

According to Campbell and Tapert - and even Sam Raimi who directed Episode 1 - Ash evolved into an umbalanced sociopath. He has a very limited empathy, he is totally out of touch with society and culture, and he's become a slave of sex, drugs and alcohol.
On the top of that, he just created for himself a "Ash Asshole Persona" (arrogant, cold and cruel) in order to further hide what's left of his humanity. And it's very little, trust me.

I must add that the AvED Ash is very intelligent and takes some very smart decisions along the way. He just hides that under the guise of the "Ash Asshole Persona" we talked about.
 

MaidOfKandar

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....I don't believe that they've ever said Ash evolved into a total sociopath, they've just called him lazy, dumb etc. And even if he were a sociopath, that character description doesn't fit that in any of his incarnations, even the AvED one.

I'd also say his empathy evolves decently, which can't happen in sociopathy.
 

The Knowby Warrior

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....I don't believe that they've ever said Ash evolved into a total sociopath, they've just called him lazy, dumb etc. And even if he were a sociopath, that character description doesn't fit that in any of his incarnations, even the AvED one.

I'd also say his empathy evolves decently, which can't happen in sociopathy.

Psychopathy and sociopathy are two different things. Psychopaths have NO empathy for anyone or anything and can't improve. Sociopaths can feel empathy for some individuals (Kelly, Pablo, Brandy) but it's very limited.
Psychopaths are born. Sociopaths are made. There are many other differences... too many to list.

Ash wasn't a sociopath in ED2. I think that started in AoD. Don't forget we don't know how much time he has been a slave before being brought to the Kandar castle...

Only a sociopath could talk about Amanda's parts in a sexual way like that.

He is lazy because sociopaths are not "organized", "straight" and "active" like psychopaths. Sociopaths are out of touch with society and rules, as well as law.
 

MaidOfKandar

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I'd agree with you, but Ash actually cares about people in AOD; he comes to care for Henry and Arthur (reluctantly), has feelings for Sheila (reluctantly). AOD's emotional line (if you can dig it up) is more about him learning how to regrow empathy and learn how to trust people. He even saves a woman from rape via a skeleton during the battle scene.

I pretty much consider season 1 Ash as an aberration at this point (and a result of shit writing). He's not even that person in season 2.
 
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DyD

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Fact is:

According to Campbell and Tapert - and even Sam Raimi who directed Episode 1 - Ash evolved into an umbalanced sociopath. He has a very limited empathy, he is totally out of touch with society and culture, and he's become a slave of sex, drugs and alcohol.
On the top of that, he just created for himself a "Ash Asshole Persona" (arrogant, cold and cruel) in order to further hide what's left of his humanity. And it's very little, trust me.

I must add that the AvED Ash is very intelligent and takes some very smart decisions along the way. He just hides that under the guise of the "Ash Asshole Persona" we talked about.

Sorry, but there's absolutely NOTHING in the show to support that theory about him hiding his humanity behind a fabricated persona. Up until now, Ash on the show has been pretty much a "what you see is what you get" type of deal. During the first couple of seasons, Craig and Bruce even stated that they were purposefully avoiding things such as development, layers and complex character traits, and that they really meant Ash to be that shallow and one dimensional. Concerning this "evolution" of Ash into a slave of sex, drugs and alcohol due to all of the things he went through, during season 2 they went as far as retconning his backstory to say that he's always been this bullying, womanizing, idiot party animal, even before he went to the cabin with his friends. And about him making intelligent and very smart decisions along the way, I wanna remind you that the event that literally sets the show's story in motion is Ash reading from the Necronomicon willingly, purposefully and fully aware of what could happen while high on pot.
 
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The Knowby Warrior

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Sorry, but there's absolutely NOTHING in the show to support that theory about him hiding his humanity behind a fabricated persona. Up until now, Ash on the show has been pretty much a "what you see is what you get" type of deal. During the first couple of seasons, Craig and Bruce even stated that they were purposefully avoiding things such as development, layers and complex character traits, and that they really meant Ash to be that shallow and one dimensional. Concerning this "evolution" of Ash into a slave of sex, drugs and alcohol due to all of the things he went through, during season 2 they went as far as retconning his backstory to say that he's always been this bullying, womanizing, idiot party animal, even before he went to the cabin with his friends. And about him making intelligent and very smart decisions along the way, I wanna remind you that the event that literally sets the show's story in motion is Ash reading from the Necronomicon willingly, purposefully and fully aware of what could happen while high on pot.

He's not faking. He TRULY evolved into a sociopath since AoD. What's left of his humanity is carefully "trapped" inside the "fabricated" persona. That's it.

They just hinted in S2 Episode 1 that ONE TIME he bullied Thomas Emery (the Elk Grove sheriff and Linda's husband) at the high school, but don't forget that we're talking about a guy whose best friend was SCOTT/SCOTTY - basically an asshole. At the time Ash had no distinct personality (as we can see at the beginning of "The Evil Dead"), he was a silent type and a coward... and SCOTT might have pushed him to bully Emery a bit just to have fun. I can totally see that. Don't forget that they were the same guys who compared Ash's ex girlfriend to the Kandarian Dagger LOL.
I also want remind you that the guys (Ash, Linda, Cheryl, Shelly, Scott) were 100% HIGH and totally on pot when they played the tape recorder in 1982. So they were your standard party animal boys & girls.
Conclusion: Scott was the asshole and Ash was his silent sidekick. I met a lot of people like that, trust me. It's typical. People like Scott need people like pre-ED Ash in order to do what they do.

When Ash recited the incantation in S1 Episode 1, he was drunk and stoned. PLUS, S2 Episode 9 established that the Necronomicon plays a HUGE influence on those who "possess" it - Professor Raymond Knowby was totally influenced by it, for instance. Having Ash drunk and stoned means having the Necronomicon easily set to "take the chance" and influence his mind... and it happened.
 
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DyD

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He's not faking. He TRULY evolved into a sociopath since AoD. What's left of his humanity is carefully "trapped" inside the "fabricated" persona. That's it.

They just hinted in S2 Episode 1 that ONE TIME he bullied Thomas Emery (the Elk Grove sheriff and Linda's husband) at the high school, but don't forget that we're talking about a guy whose best friend was SCOTT/SCOTTY - basically an asshole. At the time Ash had no distinct personality (as we can see at the beginning of "The Evil Dead"), he was a silent type and a coward... and SCOTT might have pushed him to bully Emery a bit just to have fun. I can totally see that. Don't forget that they were the same guys who compared Ash's ex girlfriend to the Kandarian Dagger LOL.
I also want remind you that the guys (Ash, Linda, Cheryl, Shelly, Scott) were 100% HIGH and totally on pot when they played the tape recorder in 1982. So they were your standard party animal boys & girls.
Conclusion: Scott was the asshole and Ash was his silent sidekick. I met a lot of people like that, trust me. It's typical. People like Scott need people like pre-ED Ash in order to do what they do.

When Ash recited the incantation in S1 Episode 1, he was drunk and stoned. PLUS, S2 Episode 9 established that the Necronomicon plays a HUGE influence on those who "possess" it - Professor Raymond Knowby was totally influenced by it, for instance. Having Ash drunk and stoned means having the Necronomicon easily set to "take the chance" and influence his mind... and it happened.

Yeah, I'm not buying it, man. If that's what the showrunners always meant to do with Ash they would've addressed it and developed the idea further on the show, and if you take into account their behind the scenes statements, it seems their intentions were quite the contrary to that. Thing is, I just can't relate Ash's character in the show to who he was in any of the trilogy films. He's almost unrecognizable to me and without some actual character development, I have a hard time buying his "evolution" into that character. I can see a certain character progression from movie to movie, but the show has been consistently negating that character progression since it started. I'm with MaidOfKandar in not seeing how AoD showcased Ash becoming the "sociopath" he is in the show. In fact, I see quite the opposite. Also, Ash in ED1 wasn't a coward. Scotty was, and Ash actually breaks free of any bad influence he might have had on him by the end of the film. Yes, they were drunk and high when they played the tape recorder, but back then, Ash hadn't had any contact with evil and didn't know what it could do yet. Ash in the show already knows better. The book killed his sister, his girlfriend, his friends, tried to kill him, made him cut off his own hand, sent him to the medieval ages and put him through many other traumatizing events. The contents of that book completely ruined his life. I really have a hard time believing that the Ash we know from the movies would ever willingly open that book again, let alone casually read from it, no matter how much alcohol and THC he had in his bloodstream. As a matter of fact, I think Ash would probably be extremely paranoid and scared about being anywhere near the book. Concerning the book influencing his mind while he was susceptible, that's actually a very interesting and sound theory, but that's not what the scene implies and the way they decided to portray the character from that point on makes it seem that Ash really was that stupid all on his own.

Like I said on that other thread, this seems to me like just another case of giving it way more thought than the people actually writing the show ever did and using unconfirmed fan theories as a way of justifying or validating certain contradictions, plotholes and weird characterization decisions in the show. Believe me, I'd love AvED to be that smart and layered. I'd love Ash in the show to be a complex character with a rich psychological background. Unfortunately, I feel that ship has already sailed and there's not enough fan theorizing in the world that could bring it back. So, in conclusion, I must respectfully disagree with you on those theories, dear old friend.
 
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The Knowby Warrior

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DyD,

I understand your point of view, however. I politely disagree with you, but I see where you're coming from. From my perspective, they turned Ash into something very different in the last third of "Evil Dead II", and AoD and AvED brought us to see the progression/expansion of the Ash we see in the last 1/3 of "Evil Dead II".

In truth, if they would have followed the tone of "The Evil Dead" or even the first 2/3 of "Evil Dead II", Ash should have become a character like John Constantine or any fictional book character battling the forces of Evil.

By the way, I'm loving this discussion and I'm glad to be here. But mind you, I love AvED to the nth degree and this version of Ash is absolutely magnificent, despite the ED2 Ash is always my favourite.
 
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DyD

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In truth, if they would have followed the tone of "The Evil Dead" or even the first 2/3 of "Evil Dead II", Ash should have become a character like John Constantine or any fictional book character battling the forces of Evil.

In no way, shape or form I'm advocating that they should have followed the tone of the first film or that Ash should be a deadly serious, grim and gritty character. Just wanted to clarify that.
 
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MaidOfKandar

I May Be Bad But I Feel...Good....
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Sorry, but there's absolutely NOTHING in the show to support that theory about him hiding his humanity behind a fabricated persona. Up until now, Ash on the show has been pretty much a "what you see is what you get" type of deal. During the first couple of seasons, Craig and Bruce even stated that they were purposefully avoiding things such as development, layers and complex character traits, and that they really meant Ash to be that shallow and one dimensional. Concerning this "evolution" of Ash into a slave of sex, drugs and alcohol due to all of the things he went through, during season 2 they went as far as retconning his backstory to say that he's always been this bullying, womanizing, idiot party animal, even before he went to the cabin with his friends. And about him making intelligent and very smart decisions along the way, I wanna remind you that the event that literally sets the show's story in motion is Ash reading from the Necronomicon willingly, purposefully and fully aware of what could happen while high on pot.

^^ This, I was going to say because of season 2 according to AveD canon there's not even a backslide for him to undergo.

How did 1982 Ruby knew that Ash shot her sister right in the face?

She's an all-powerful demoness. If she wrote the book, then she could've likely been one of the spirits tormenting Ash that night.


I also want remind you that the guys (Ash, Linda, Cheryl, Shelly, Scott) were 100% HIGH and totally on pot when they played the tape recorder in 1982. So they were your standard party animal boys & girls.

That was a deleted scene, and ergo isn't canon. They may have been slightly drunk (whatever went into that blender) but on-camera and in-canon in all of the movie's various cuts, they aren't high. So you can use that in extended canon but it's never been in any version of the actual, finished movie (because as we all know the actors got so high they became unintelligible).

Wait when did Candy and Ash get married? If Brandy is a senior in HS then she must have been born in 1999 - 2000, but in the Candy flashbacks Ash looks very 1980s

And no one looked like that in the '90s. Honestly he looked very 80's Freddie Mercury/Biker dude from the Village People in those flashbacks, so I assumed it happened just post-canon until I did the mental math.

They just hinted in S2 Episode 1 that ONE TIME he bullied Thomas Emery (the Elk Grove sheriff and Linda's husband) at the high school, but don't forget that we're talking about a guy whose best friend was SCOTT/SCOTTY - basically an asshole. At the time Ash had no distinct personality (as we can see at the beginning of "The Evil Dead"), he was a silent type and a coward.

Just by you saying that indicates he has a personality. He's mildly jockish, but even in TED he's somewhat of a romantic (the way he treats Linda's death/treats her while she's alive), a decent brother (even though he's pissed about Cheryl's being upset and ruining the vacation for him, he comforts her when she breaks down after seeing the bridge is gone), and a bookish type (his awkward linguistic quotation). You can call that no characterization, but it actually is one.

Yeah, I'm not buying it, man. If that's what the showrunners always meant to do with Ash they would've addressed it and developed the idea further on the show, and if you take into account their behind the scenes statements, it seems their intentions were quite the contrary to that.

Judging from this season's version of Ash, it actually looks like the majority of the jerkass Ash characterization we got was Craig's idea.

Also, Ash in ED1 wasn't a coward. Scotty was, and Ash actually breaks free of any bad influence he might have had on him by the end of the film.

^^ Important and true.
 
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Sutter Cane

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I agree with @DyD. "Over theorized" on something that is not appearing or explained in a story is simply not there. Evil Dead is not Nolan's Inception and It's not even a poem. Everything outside the box is fans fiction.

There's a lack of consistency between movies because of rights issue. There's inconsistency on the series because of bad writing and decisions. If something is not explain it's because writers totally missed it.

If you need an explanation from creator in an interview to explain a part of the story. This means they failed to explain it in the movie. This is just like telling a joke and explain it later because people didn't catch it.

Fans fictions are cool and trying to figure out the mythology can be too, but don't try too hard. ;)
 

Joem1k

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i just wanna bring out this quote from mark (The current showrunner) about ash's character. (Some spelling errors in this transcription)

What is the secret to writing Ash, because I think you grasp his character very well?

I’ll leave to others if I cracked or we cracked it. (laughs) I think that the secret is deep down he does sort of care. That a lot of his, “leave me alone, get out of here kids”, “get outta my face” attitude he has is just a cover. I think in some respects he’s a guy who literally is not that bright, which is fine, who found himself having to confront extraordinary circumstances and resents that in a lot of ways. And yet I also think, after 30 years of this, he derives quite a bit of his self-worth from it. The fact that he’s the one fighting evil.

So while he bitches and moans and complains and seems like he’s going to turn tail, even comes off as cowardly sometimes, he’s really not any of those things. He’s actually sort of a warrior thrust into a battle he never wanted. So you don’t want to forget that this is a war he can fight. He’ll have times when he’ll decide, “I don’t want to do that! Stay away from me. Leave me alone.” But he steps up. That’s what makes him so cool. He never gives up.


Is there anything you want fans that have stuck to this franchise for almost forty years to know about season three?

It’s sort of a slightly different feel. The season introduces his daughter. It doesn’t change everything in terms of relationships, but it definitely changes up how the show feels. I think the addition of the daughter to the show a little more of an emotional resonance to Ash and to his relationship both to her and the other characters.

With that said, we, of course, tried to outdo the other seasons in terms of spectacle, and there is quite a bit of spectacle as we get further on in this season - and all through it - and in terms of the set pieces that everybody loves. Those are there, but I think there’s also more, for lack of a better word, heart this season as Ash and Brandy try to forge a relationship in the midst of this insane battle with evil. So I think that’s what we tried to do to move things forward a little bit.

Source : http://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/ash-vs-evil-dead/270983/what-to-expect-from-ash-vs-evil-dead-season-3
 
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